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Aaron Bitterman
02-10-2004, 01:25 AM
Updated EVO Challenge Classing System:

------------------------------------
EVO Challenge classification (this is the formal classing for the EVO Challenge event #1, April 30 at Streets of Willow. However, because unexpected issues are raised it can still be modified to make the series fair and fun for all.)

No changes are allowed to a car unless they are listed below (if it's not listed, you can't change it). If a component or other modification is listed below, any type (or size) of that component is allowed, unless otherwise noted (ie. "sway bar" means adjustable or non-adjustable allowed. “Tires” would mean any size or type of tire).

Any equipment that improves safety is allowed provided it is pre-approved by Speed Ventures. If a safety modification improves performance it may be ascribed points. Aftermarket rollbars and racing seats are allowed in any class, but an approved seat must be installed in the passenger side. No parts, insulation or anything may be removed from a car to lighten it or for any other reason, except for the tire change kit (jack, etc.) and spare tire – unless it is allowed in the points system below.

If you have a question about the EVO Challenge series that you do not wish to post here, please contact Aaron Bitterman ([email protected]).

STOCK 300
1 bushing swap (RRE swapped a bushing for me and I don't know what it's called, but it wasn't that expensive and it apparently does a lot of good)
street tires (max width 255, treadwear 120+)
max crank hp = 300 (EVO)
max crank hp = 330 (DSM)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.

(any mod that doesn't have a clear advantage will be allowed to increase participation, however it must be pre-approved).

MOD 330
coilovers
front sway
camber plates
Bushings
DOT-R (preliminarily all DOT-R tires allowed except Hoosiers due to their high life cycle cost; MAX WIDTH 255)
max crank hp =330 (EVO)
max crank hp =360 (other DSM)
rear wing

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car/chassis must be 4G63 powered and must have started life as a 4G63 powered car.


BASELINE MODS
shocks OR springs (not both!)
Alignment – any setting obtainable with modification to stock parts
Rear swaybar
Wheels
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter
Any airbox
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
x-brace
clutch

Coolguy949
02-10-2004, 02:37 AM
Aaron, sounds great! I'll make this a sticky for the time being!

GokuSSJ4
02-10-2004, 09:45 AM
that means that most of us will be place on the modified ....
sounds great i plan to attend at least 4 events out of the year, which streets of willows seems to be next . An a 3 month gap seems excellent...

Aaron Bitterman
02-10-2004, 10:13 AM
Coolguy, Thanks! That would be good for time being.

Goku, that's the plan. Unlimited also means "unlimited budget" so the middle class will probably be where most people end up.

Let me know if you guys think something (or everything:) ) should be changed in the classing system.

GokuSSJ4
02-10-2004, 10:43 AM
by the way Aaron , i didn't get a chance to ride in your car ... hope im able at the next event .. I know it helps a lot went you see some one else driving at the track with experience . btw what was your fastest time at ThunderHill???

kaisho99
02-10-2004, 11:04 AM
That sounds very cool!!!

Aaron, when do you think the results from this weekend will be posted on your site?

Thx again for putting on a great event and coming up with the AMP.

drmosh
02-10-2004, 02:21 PM
Awesome, count me in for the series.

I will start off in stock unless I run R tires. And I'll have to be starting in April I guess.

:D

Aaron Bitterman
02-10-2004, 03:31 PM
goku, of course, ride-alongs are always welcome. I want to try it with four in the car sometime but I think I'd need car sickness bags for those in the rear :).

John will get the times up by tonight and will start an EVO Challenge section so people can see how everyone's times rank up. As I recall we'll have the following results if the current classing stays as it is above:

UNLIMITED
Robbie 2:03's

MODIFIED
Wayne 2:08's (SLICKS)
Matt 2:08's

STOCK
Wayne 2:11's (ADVANs)
Aaron 2:11's
Brandon (2:10's? Brandon was turning 1:48's at Laguna)
+ 20 more drivers

I don't remember many times so I only included the people I vaguely remember were going sort of fast. There could have someone out there turning 2:07's on a stock car, I don't know.. Everyone should email me ([email protected]) their tires and mod's so I can get the classes organized when john posts times tonight. People who I don't hear from will automatically be listed as UNCLASSED, which many people will be OK with probably. But, they can get classed by sending in their mods/tires, as I said.

But to answer your question.... 2:11's. I'm just hoping I beat Wayne and Brandon, but I have my doubts! I can't wait for the times to get posted also, so I'm bugging John.

Aaron Bitterman
02-10-2004, 03:39 PM
I added this to my original post:

At these events there are a total of 8 time trial days (1 thill, 1 streets, 2 streets, 2 willow, 2 thill). Each day counts as a separate event. We will also name a year-end Championship Winner by dropping the worst 2 days from people's results. That way people can miss 2 of the 8 days and still compete.

drmosh
02-11-2004, 12:13 AM
Any equipment that improves safety is allowed provided it is pre-approved by Speed Ventures. If a safety modification improves performance it may be ascribed points. Aftermarket rollbars and racing seats are allowed in any class, but an approved seat must be installed in the passenger side. No parts, insulation or anything may be removed from a car to lighten it or for any other reason, except for the tire change kit (jack, etc.) and spare tire – unless it is allowed in the points system below.


Does the weight thing apply to the unlimited class? I know some guys in S2KI do not have passenger seats, are they part of the challenge series? Larger turbos go towards unlimited or is beyond the series too?

Aaron Bitterman
02-11-2004, 08:59 AM
drmosh,

I hadn't thought of the larger turbo mod; that's partially why I posted here so people would think of mods like that to include. How many points should it be worth? I'll start off by making it 30 and see what people have to say.

In unlimited ANYTHING goes. Strip the car completely and replace the doors and body panels with carbon fiber, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that the chassis start off as an EVO. We require that the frame remain an EVO frame, but even suspension parts can be swapped. The subframe hasn't come up yet as an issue, so I'm not sure about that.

Tube frame/sillouettes are not allowed since they're not really EVO's.

drmosh
02-11-2004, 01:49 PM
I dunno about 30 points, according to your list:

Non-DOT tires (slicks) 75
DOT (R-Compound) Tires 50
Coilovers (shocks & springs) 50

I would say larger turbo should be a 75-110 pt mod since it's a huge horsepower advantage. Most people who drop in bigger turbos aren't messing around, usually includes massive manifold too.

Muellerized...
02-11-2004, 01:54 PM
Why don't we include the earlier 4G63 turbo cars also? Many of these guys have run track events up and down the west coast for years, and we could have 50 car 4G63 turbo field of cars. You scheduled your first EVO challenge event on top of our existing DSM Day II which was held at Buttonwillow while Speedventures was at Thunderhill. It would only make sense to combine both schedules and have a larger turnout with better support for those who choose to participate.

DSM/EVO Challenge?

gt40
02-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Yes please...

GokuSSJ4
02-11-2004, 02:13 PM
so it would be all 4g63 then ??
will the same rules applied to them ?

Aaron Bitterman
02-11-2004, 08:18 PM
Ok. Sounds fine. The DSM Challnge. I was thinking of starting a separate classification for other DSM's, but if people want to lump them here are two ideas. Post yours and we'll see what we can come up with.

OPTION A
1. EVO Stock
2. DSM Stock (no EVO's)
3. EVO Modified
4. DSM Modified (no EVO's)
5. All-DSM Unlimited (includes EVO's and all others)

OPTION B

1. DSM Stock (70 pts., no EVO's allowed)
2. DSM SuperStock (200 pts, EVO's only get 70 pts)
3. DSM Modified (EVO's get 200 pts, others get 300?)
4. DSM Unlimited (anything goes, any DSM car)

Derekw
02-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Those of us with EVOs don't like our cars to be referred to as DSMs. It sends chills down our spines :shock:

:wink: :wink: 8)

gt40
02-11-2004, 09:08 PM
originally posted by: Derekw

Those of us with EVOs don't like our cars to be referred to as DSMs. It sends chills down our spines

They were here first and you are throwing an huge insult to a whole community. Please speak for yourself if you want but don't claim to speak for all evo owners...

Muellerized...
02-11-2004, 09:20 PM
[quote="Derekw"]Those of us with EVOs don't like our cars to be referred to as DSMs.

Oh, your saying that cause your EVO is not fast enough yet to be called a DSM?

How about we invite all of the DSMs and EVOs to the Mitsubishi Challenge? That way guys like Derek won't be so butt hurt over his precious EVO being typecast as a DSM? :P

If it has a 4G63 turbo motor in it, it is a DSM in our world.

See you at the track.

John Mueller
PS here is a story that Mike wrote about what is a DSM.

Which is exactly why it is mental masturbation to discuss it. Personally, I
have some experience with what the "hard core DSM'er" will put up with. To give you an idea of what the pecking order is, there is a "Club DSM" meet at a park one day... The following cars show up:


1G FWD Turbo
2G AWD (runs 11s, looks stock)
3G 4 cyl stock
88 Hyundai Excel with a 4G63 turbo motor/tranny swap
99 Mirage with a EVO IV motor/tranny swap
1G 1.8 SOHC auto tranny
2002 Lancer with a RRM turbo kit
2G NT
3G 4 cyl with a custom Garrett 50 trim
2G NT with a HRC turbo kit
2002 Lancer
GVR-4
3G V6 stock
3000GT VR4
Starion Turbo
1G FWD 4G63 NT
US EVO bone stock
89 Mirage Turbo stock
89 Colt with a 4G63T, 20G turbo
2G FWD Turbo
1G AWD, 16G
3G V6 with a DDP turbo kit
2G AWD with a Godzilla body kit, neon's, white leather interior and air bag
suspension


Of the group, the following guys are Lord God King and get all the chicks,
they spend all day with their hoods up telling war stories :
US EVO bone stock
89 Colt with a 4G63T, 20G turbo
1G AWD Stoptechs, JICs, Biggee turbo 400hp at the wheels
2G AWD (runs 11s, looks stock)
88 Hyundai Excel with a 4G63 turbo motor/tranny swap
99 Mirage with a EVO IV motor/tranny swap


These guys are all cool, get along fine:
1G FWD Turbo
89 Mirage Turbo stock
GVR-4
2G FWD Turbo
1G AWD, 16G


The following are tolerated, they even get to have some of the pizza, mostly
they keep to them selves:
2G NT
2002 Lancer with a RRM turbo kit
2G NT with a HRC turbo kit
3G V6 with a DDP turbo kit
3G 4 cyl with a custom Garrett 50 trim
1G FWD 4G63 NT


The following are pants'd, their underwear pulled over their head and their
girlfriends get stolen, they leave in tears:
1G 1.8 SOHC auto tranny
2002 Lancer
3G V6 stock
3G 4 cyl stock
2G AWD with a Mothra body kit, neon's, white leather interior and air bag
suspension


The following guys have nothing in common and no one talks to them, they go
home confused:
3000GT VR4
Starion Turbo

---------------------------------------------


Your "DSM" Avenger guy falls into the last category. No one really cares if
he has a DSM sticker anywhere on the car, it is more about attitude and what
is making the power under the hood. Yes all kinds of cars that have more or
less to do with the cars we love have rolled out of the former DSM plant in
Normal Illinois. Anything made in the Normal plant prior to 97 when MMSA
bought the Chrysler stake out will have a DSM sticker on it. Many "DSMs"
built after that will not have a DSM stiocker on them, including the EVO.


Mike W

OGVW
02-11-2004, 10:01 PM
Im with John on this one.....I think all the 4G63's should get along! We can race together, Aarons formula looks pretty good, Im sure there will be some tweeking needed but it looks like a good start.

Derekw
02-11-2004, 10:19 PM
I'm joking. Noticed the multiple winks in my post? :wink: :wink:

I've owned 3 DSMs in my life (2 1Gs and 1 2G) + the EVO and other cars. Started the NW chapter of club DSM when I was 16... learned most of what I know about cars from the DSMs. Drove almost 4000 miles to see Mike and gang at RRE over 5 years ago. So don't get too freaked out about a little joke.

If it wasn't for the great work DSMers and hardcore DSM shops like RRE, Buschur Racing, and others have put forth over the last 13+ years, I really don't think many of us would be here having a great time enjoying our cars.

Back to the topic at hand..... I think the DSM/EVO challenge would be a great idea. Some of the guys that have spent years working and perfecting their 1/2Gs would really do well. Everyone involved can get faster and learn from each other. The S2k guys have gotten super fast over the last couple of years hugely in part of SV's challenge series. EVO and DSM guys would get nothing but huge benefits from this series. I can't wait for this to happen to will make every effort to attend these events even if it meant driving 2 days to get to Willow Springs!

Derekw
02-11-2004, 10:26 PM
Oh... maybe I should also explain why the chills down the spine..

Over the 3 year period I had my 2G... I went through 3 blocks, 3 heads, 80 valves, 6 timing belts, 5 trannies, 2 transfer cases, 3 clutches, 4 turbos, 4 sets of rims, 3 front bumpers, gallons and gallons of motor oil/coolant, and god knows what else. Anyone that had gone through that much on one car is bound to get some tingle thinking about it more than they have to... :roll:

:wink: :wink: <-- winks.. meaning I'm having fun.

STiTHIS
02-11-2004, 11:12 PM
Sweet, lets start racing.

drmosh
02-11-2004, 11:45 PM
I have another comment to make. ECU reflash being only 15 points is kind of low in my opinion, we have seen EVO's making more than +50whp on just ECU reflashes. I am inclined to say they would be bumped into the modified category... but enforcement becomes a problem, it would not be obvious at the outset but after a couple of runs it could be quite obvious.

izzy
02-12-2004, 09:05 AM
I have nothing against lumping DSM's with Evo's or viceaversa. However, I do anticipate a problem with overcrowding coming from either in which not everyone may be able to participate due to a very full roster. It only makes sense to lump them together if there weren't enough cars participating, but as it stands the numbers of the cars showing up to the events will grow, especially with the Evo crowd. It's all about time, your time on the track. Will there be enough with so many cars? Seperate groups or events makes more sense to me.

GokuSSJ4
02-12-2004, 10:58 AM
thats true , since with the larger the groups they will become . it will = to less track time. An to have to drive 4-6 hr not to get enough track time it wouldnt be much fun...

Aaron Bitterman
02-12-2004, 11:50 AM
I have nothing against lumping DSM's with Evo's or viceaversa. However, I do anticipate a problem with overcrowding coming from either in which not everyone may be able to participate due to a very full roster. It only makes sense to lump them together if there weren't enough cars participating, but as it stands the numbers of the cars showing up to the events will grow, especially with the Evo crowd. It's all about time, your time on the track. Will there be enough with so many cars? Seperate groups or events makes more sense to me.

We already have separate groups. We don't stick everyone on track at once, they're broken down by car speed and driver ability.

Overcrowding isn't a problem. If we have 100 DSMs then we have an all-DSM event. SV has 20 dates in California; we can make dates all-DSM or we can hold an event with 10 DSM's, we have that flexibility. We'll accomodate everyone who shows up, ensure track time, and, more importantly for the time trial component: ensure space on track.

If we get too many DSM's then we can break it down further, but I can't see that happening anytime soon, but if it does, again not a problem. I think it would be a mistake to not allow non-EVO's now because we're anticipating a problem later.

Aaron Bitterman
02-12-2004, 12:04 PM
John and Josh's suggestion was to call it the 4G63 challenge, not DSM. But it sounds like people are fine with "DSM" ?? I have seen a whopping six 3000's at the track in the last 2 years! But they might want to start showing up once they see how fast all the 2 liters are.

So, we'll just say for now it's the "California DSM Championship Series", as a working title.

But enough of this semantic crap, where're the goods? Help me out here; I don't know a damn thing about these cars, I just pulled that classing system out of my ass and I can't believe it's being accepted so readily! I don't even know how a turbo works!

Ok, so we up the big turbo to 50 pts., we up the flash also? The series is done on the honor system. We'll only police when things get really serious, which I hope they do :D. We've never had a protest in the S2000 Challenge. So, should we just assume everyone's flashing the ECU and include it in the baseline mods or trust people to be honest? If we're going to trust people then the points should be upped since it's worth 30 or more hp.

Ideally each mod would be combination of the hp/handling improvement, the cost, and how much it hurts reliability/engine life, if at all.

So, as a starting point, do people like Option A (separate evo / dsm classing except for Unlimited), or Option B (separate stock classing, mixed up evo/dsm above that).

Thanks!

izzy
02-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Option A :D

drmosh
02-12-2004, 02:44 PM
Here's my suggested updates for points:

STOCK
(all BASELINE modifications allowed, + 70 pts from POINTS LIST)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = 3350 lbs.

MODIFIED
(all BASELINE mods + 200 points from POINTS LIST)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = 3350 lbs.

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car must have started its life as a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (1-xx)


BASELINE MODS
DOT Street Tires: up to 245 width tires, 100+ treadwear
Any wheels
alignment – any setting obtainable without suspension mod
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter (stock air box required)
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
Front swaybar
x-brace
clutch
Any body/aerodynamic modifications


MODIFICATION POINTS LIST

Non-DOT tires (slicks) 75
DOT (R-Compound) Tires 50
Coilovers (shocks & springs) 50
Camber plates 20
Rear swaybar 15
shocks (with unmodified stock springs) 15
springs (with stock shocks/stock valving) 10
Calipers/Rotors 10

Larger Turbo/Turbo Kit 90
CPU flash 50
Competition Cams 50
Unichip/Piggyback/Standalone EMS 50
Boost Controller 20
Air Fuel Computer 20
Cat-back exhaust 15
Aftermarket Intercooler 15
Down pipe 15
Intake 10
Anti-Lift Kit 10
Flywheel 10
Modified throttle body 5
Pullies 5

safety bonus
Roll cage (4pt. or greater, removeable OK) = +20

Coolguy949
02-12-2004, 03:04 PM
Cool!

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 01:45 AM
Here's my suggested updates for points:

STOCK
(all BASELINE modifications allowed, + 70 pts from POINTS LIST)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = 3350 lbs.

MODIFIED
(all BASELINE mods + 200 points from POINTS LIST)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = 3350 lbs.

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car must have started its life as a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (1-xx)


BASELINE MODS
DOT Street Tires: up to 245 width tires, 100+ treadwear
Any wheels
alignment – any setting obtainable without suspension mod
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter (stock air box required)
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
Front swaybar
x-brace
clutch
Any body/aerodynamic modifications


MODIFICATION POINTS LIST

Non-DOT tires (slicks) 75
DOT (R-Compound) Tires 50
Coilovers (shocks & springs) 50
Camber plates 20
Rear swaybar 15
shocks (with unmodified stock springs) 15
springs (with stock shocks/stock valving) 10
Calipers/Rotors 10

Larger Turbo/Turbo Kit 90
CPU flash 50
Competition Cams 50
Unichip/Piggyback/Standalone EMS 50
Boost Controller 20
Air Fuel Computer 20
Cat-back exhaust 15
Aftermarket Intercooler 15
Down pipe 15
Intake 10
Anti-Lift Kit 10
Flywheel 10
Modified throttle body 5
Pullies 5

safety bonus
Roll cage (4pt. or greater, removeable OK) = +20

nice break down , damn that means im getting some mayor points deducted :?
i better improve my driving skills

gt40
02-18-2004, 01:52 AM
17x9 volks- did the body work to get them to fit...
255 40 17 pilot sportcup r compounds-we got them to fit!
jic coilover by John Mueller/RRE
rear sway
links
custom lower braces
ferodo pads
stainless brake lines(saving up for the stop techs)
gt40 turbo
hks 272 cams(tossing them for some crazy piper cams since i have an 8800 redline now)
stage 5 head
bjcs intake manifold
avo fmic
avo turbo exhaust manifold
avo 3" turbo back exhaust
fuel pump(upgrading beyond the walbro i have currently)
720 injectors(upgrading to 1000)
aem ems
aem cdi
msd coils
Cusco carbon carbon( defective and being replaced after 2 weeks! only)

1 big headache making it all work together but reliable mid 500 hp at the wheels with 470 pounds of torque on race gas for the track. I am shooting to end up hopefully with a 4k- 8800k power band

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 02:23 AM
damn gt40, you are in a league of your own , so since you are going with the pipers cams , what do you plan to do with the 272 intake :wink: ???

gt40
02-18-2004, 02:26 AM
want to buy the set?

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 09:56 AM
You're in UNLIMITED!!!!! (hopefully for my sake!).


17x9 volks- did the body work to get them to fit...
255 40 17 pilot sportcup r compounds-we got them to fit!
jic coilover by John Mueller/RRE
rear sway
links
custom lower braces
ferodo pads
stainless brake lines(saving up for the stop techs)
gt40 turbo
hks 272 cams(tossing them for some crazy piper cams since i have an 8800 redline now)
stage 5 head
bjcs intake manifold
avo fmic
avo turbo exhaust manifold
avo 3" turbo back exhaust
fuel pump(upgrading beyond the walbro i have currently)
720 injectors(upgrading to 1000)
aem ems
aem cdi
msd coils
Cusco carbon carbon( defective and being replaced after 2 weeks! only)

1 big headache making it all work together but reliable mid 500 hp at the wheels with 470 pounds of torque on race gas for the track. I am shooting to end up hopefully with a 4k- 8800k power band

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 10:03 AM
You're in UNLIMITED!!!!! (hopefully for my sake!).


17x9 volks- did the body work to get them to fit...
255 40 17 pilot sportcup r compounds-we got them to fit!
jic coilover by John Mueller/RRE
rear sway
links
custom lower braces
ferodo pads
stainless brake lines(saving up for the stop techs)
gt40 turbo
hks 272 cams(tossing them for some crazy piper cams since i have an 8800 redline now)
stage 5 head
bjcs intake manifold
avo fmic
avo turbo exhaust manifold
avo 3" turbo back exhaust
fuel pump(upgrading beyond the walbro i have currently)
720 injectors(upgrading to 1000)
aem ems
aem cdi
msd coils
Cusco carbon carbon( defective and being replaced after 2 weeks! only)

1 big headache making it all work together but reliable mid 500 hp at the wheels with 470 pounds of torque on race gas for the track. I am shooting to end up hopefully with a 4k- 8800k power band

you have some competition Aaron :lol: get the best out of the stock evo ..

Gt40 i have the exhaust already , if i go with the APexi power FC then the 272 intake is a must !!! to replace the 264 it has in there ...

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 10:31 AM
Ok, new way of thinking. I can't classify these power mods, they're too variable. A flash can give 15 or 75hp, everything is too variable and someone's going to have 200hp more than the next guy because knows how to, or can afford to, maximize the modifications allowed. Since we will HAVE to be on the honor system anyway I was thinking we should just report hp and then softly police everyone on our own. We'll sniff out the liars. Down the line we can change things.

So, here's my latest thinking, which eliminates the points system. This is taken from a different post:

Based on a steep learning curve re. the EVO and turbo's in general I've realized there's no way to classify this car without using the honor system and keep costs down while enabling people to be competitive.

So, that brings me back to the honor system once again. However, I thought that, assuming we go with the honor system, we might as well not worry about what mods people do for power since they're too variable. Instead let's have people report their estimated crank hp and start from there. So, I thought that STOCK should allow only up to 300hp, and MODIFIED should allow only up to 330 (the European EVO hp level). Using this, perhaps ridiculous, logic here's another proposed classing system:

DSM 300
No EVO cars allowed
rear sway, any mod to increase front camber, shocks OR springs, limited bushings, wheels
street tires
max crank hp = 300
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.

(any mod that's supposedly just for show could be evaluated as to whether to allow it, just in case someone shows up with a bling bling body kit that doesn't do anything really and we don't want to exclude them).

E-STOCK 300
EVO's allowed
rear sway, any mod to increase front camber, shocks OR springs, limited bushings, wheels
street tires
max crank hp = 300 (EVO)
max crank hp = 330 (DSM)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.

MOD 330
coilovers, front/rear sway, camber plates, limited bushings, wheels
DOT-R (limited to RA-1, certain Kumho's, A032R, Michelin Cups, Hankook, and other affordable or not faster tires)
330hp (EVO)
360hp (DSM)
(no slicks, no aero)

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car must have started its life as a Mitsubishi.


BASELINE MODS
DOT Street Tires: up to 245 width tires, 100+ treadwear
Any wheels
Alignment – any setting obtainable without suspension mod
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter (stock air box required)
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
x-brace
clutch
[/b]

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 10:50 AM
so i would be on the MOD 330
then that means i need to get my RA's ...
Also by they way since we are touching the subject of tires
Aaron like in your case since you are running stock with the toyo proxes RA's right ?
with that qualify you on the 330 even do you dont have 330bhp ...
an are you also running them on stock wheels or aftermarket ones ??

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 11:20 AM
Any wheel is allowed. I may get lighter wheels, not sure.

I'd still be in MOD330 - even with only 271 - based on my tires.


so i would be on the MOD 330
then that means i need to get my RA's ...
Also by they way since we are touching the subject of tires
Aaron like in your case since you are running stock with the toyo proxes RA's right ?
with that qualify you on the 330 even do you dont have 330bhp ...
an are you also running them on stock wheels or aftermarket ones ??

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 06:23 PM
As far as tires go in MOD, I'd say we should just specifically ban Hoosiers since they're so much faster and expensive.

As far as allowable width goes, I'd say we should limit it to 245 since that's the biggest we can fit without rolling fenders, etc.

Any thoughts??

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 06:40 PM
actiolly some one mention that you were able to fit 255 serious with the right off set rim without the need to roll up the fenders..

gt40
02-18-2004, 07:25 PM
As far as allowable width goes, I'd say we should limit it to 245 since that's the biggest we can fit without rolling fenders, etc.

Change that to 255...

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 07:50 PM
I thought rolling was needed for the 255's. That's what everyone's been telling me.

GokuSSJ4
02-18-2004, 10:34 PM
I thought rolling was needed for the 255's. That's what everyone's been telling me.

i was told the opposite from Toda , since they also use Works i believe that makes them wheels . An i address that issue since i new that GT40 had done that . They say that wasnt a problem with the right off set on the wheels 255 wasnt an issue ...

Aaron Bitterman
02-18-2004, 11:32 PM
I've posted the latest classing at the top of this thread. I included the change to 255 width.

gt40
02-19-2004, 12:46 AM
Thanks! Now i can break in the pilot sport cups...

Knower
03-10-2004, 12:59 PM
A couple questions/comments:


So, that brings me back to the honor system once again. However, I thought that, assuming we go with the honor system, we might as well not worry about what mods people do for power since they're too variable. Instead let's have people report their estimated crank hp and start from there.

Reading this thread, this certainly seems like one of the more realistic options. Let me give another extreme example that supports the HP estimated classing you've proposed after your mods spectrum realization. <a href="http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=572">Here is a link to my car's mod list</a>.

My DSM has a considerable amount of money into it with a fully built bottom end, a mildly ported head, and a full featured engine management system. Even with all these $ mods, I estimate I have maybe 10-20 crank horsepower more than stock (210) because I'm almost completely stock otherwise. Lumping the sum of these parts into the total HP benefit is obviously a lot more accurate than assigning me a bunch of points deductions. :shock:



DSM 300
No EVO cars allowed
rear sway, any mod to increase front camber, shocks OR springs, limited bushings, wheels
street tires
max crank hp = 300
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.

(any mod that's supposedly just for show could be evaluated as to whether to allow it, just in case someone shows up with a bling bling body kit that doesn't do anything really and we don't want to exclude them).

E-STOCK 300
EVO's allowed
rear sway, any mod to increase front camber, shocks OR springs, limited bushings, wheels
street tires
max crank hp = 300 (EVO)
max crank hp = 330 (DSM)
Minimum weight with driver (empty gas tank ok) = listed showroom weight +100lbs.

MOD 330
coilovers, front/rear sway, camber plates, limited bushings, wheels
DOT-R (limited to RA-1, certain Kumho's, A032R, Michelin Cups, Hankook, and other affordable or not faster tires)
330hp (EVO)
360hp (DSM)
(no slicks, no aero)

UNLIMITED
Totally open, but car must have started its life as a Mitsubishi.

BASELINE MODS
DOT Street Tires: up to 245 width tires, 100+ treadwear
Any wheels
Alignment – any setting obtainable without suspension mod
Any brake pad
Any modification to stock rotor
Any brake fluid
Brake ducting allowed
Brake dust shields can be removed
Brakelines
Any air filter (stock air box required)
Any fluids
Any plugs
Strut-tower brace
Rear brace
Thermostat
Heat shield
x-brace
clutch


Am I missing something important here with the need for the stock air box? I don't see many DSMs even bone stock outside of a filter that retain their stock air box. Anything that isn't directly suspension/braking system related (tires/wheels inclusive in suspension) can probably be removed entirely from the baseline mods list (and just specify what mods will put you in the different categories).

What's the reasoning behind allowing more horsepower for the DSMs vs. Evos? Is it because DSMs come in FWD too? Maybe I shouldn't be complaining? :lol:

Another concern I had is where my car would fit in. It looks like with a lot of DSMs that could have up to 70-80 more HP than me. I guess it all depends on what mod-level DSMs show up, but a stock-ish Evo fits in pretty well with the E-Stock 300 class, but a stock-ish DSM doesn't fit in as well in the DSM 300 class. Perhaps an E-stock 2XX (?) class for close to stock DSMs?

So my last concern was how suspension and brakes come into play. Perhaps the hp classifications are good, but the suspension and brakes classifications need some more analysis. I say this because (stock) an Evo has better braking than a DSM, and better handling no? I would mention wheels/tires but it looks like wheels/tires is just being assumed as modified for every class. Perhaps there should be a further breakdown here, whether it would be based on points or otherwise.

If I'm wrong on any of this, then great, but I thought I'd bring this stuff up. Hope I wasn't too nitpicky. Someday my car will be in unlimited! :)

P.S. And don't take my concerns as whining for the DSMs, as I know plenty of DSMs will be kicking ass out there. There's nothing the older cars can't handle, just looking to help this draft get thought out.

EDIT: quoting errors fixed and P.S. added.

Hallster
03-20-2004, 12:15 PM
If there was a 'prototype' class, your car would be in it.

Sean


17x9 volks- did the body work to get them to fit...
255 40 17 pilot sportcup r compounds-we got them to fit!
jic coilover by John Mueller/RRE
rear sway
links
custom lower braces
ferodo pads
stainless brake lines(saving up for the stop techs)
gt40 turbo
hks 272 cams(tossing them for some crazy piper cams since i have an 8800 redline now)
stage 5 head
bjcs intake manifold
avo fmic
avo turbo exhaust manifold
avo 3" turbo back exhaust
fuel pump(upgrading beyond the walbro i have currently)
720 injectors(upgrading to 1000)
aem ems
aem cdi
msd coils
Cusco carbon carbon( defective and being replaced after 2 weeks! only)

1 big headache making it all work together but reliable mid 500 hp at the wheels with 470 pounds of torque on race gas for the track. I am shooting to end up hopefully with a 4k- 8800k power band

Hallster
03-20-2004, 04:14 PM
My $.02 on the current rules:
- The 'Evo' E-Stock stock class should be for Evos only. If another DSM car warrants another class, then there should be another class - the "playing field" should be as level as possible. With the current rules, the non-evo awd cars may have an advantage wrt weight and/or power. Why even go there?
- The rules need to be finalized soon(Isn't the first event next month?) I almost had some work done on my car wrt the rules posted on evolutionm.net.(maybe remove or edit them noting the rules aren't final yet?).
- Alignment settings should be 'factory' for e-stock 300. A car with 5 degrees neqative camber in the front is not meant for the street. Thats the ballpark "ideal" camber for some of the tires we'll be running.

Thanks!

Sean

Knower
03-20-2004, 10:18 PM
My $.02 on the current rules:
- The 'Evo' E-Stock stock class should be for Evos only. If another DSM car warrants another class, then there should be another class - the "playing field" should be as level as possible. With the current rules, the non-evo awd cars may have an advantage wrt weight and/or power. Why even go there?

I don't see where they'd have an advantage with weight. My stock awd with tools in the trunk, full interior, cloth seats, factory spare, and a quarter tank of gas weighed in at ~3200 pounds. The curb weight on an Evo is ~3200 pounds as far as I can tell from looking around online (not always accurate, I know). A FWD dsm will be lighter, but they are still boats, and the large handling difference easily makes up for the FWD dsms being lighter than an Evo. As for other factors (like people with *shudder* leather seats and other amenities, the AWD dsms may even be heavier than the Evos.

As for power advantages, if the power distributions were re-evaluated (maybe allowing some more power for the FWD vehicles or whatever), I think the shared class would be great.



- Alignment settings should be 'factory' for e-stock 300. A car with 5 degrees neqative camber in the front is not meant for the street. Thats the ballpark "ideal" camber for some of the tires we'll be running.

Yeah.

Hallster
03-22-2004, 02:29 PM
I don't see where they'd have an advantage with weight... <snip> ....As for power advantages, if the power distributions were re-evaluated (maybe allowing some more power for the FWD vehicles or whatever), I think the shared class would be great.



Yeah, I don't know what advantages/disadvantages there would be... But if there are seperate classes, it becomes a moot point. Again, it may not even be an issue in the long run. I don't know.
Put another way, *if* a DSM where to win the "Evo Challenge", IMO, the rules failed, *or* it never was an Evo Challenge to begin with.

I think what warrants the "Evo Challange", is Evos. So, it makes sense to make this class "Evos only" if a DSM dominates... Though on the other hand, if I was running a DSM, I'd only compete if I knew I could be competitive. So we're in a catch-22 situation unless the objectives for each class is communicated up front.

So as long as Aaron's clear wrt expectations, I think it'll all work out.

btw, anyone heard from Aaron over the last few days?

Thanks,

Sean

Knower
03-22-2004, 03:42 PM
Yeah, I don't know what advantages/disadvantages there would be... But if there are seperate classes, it becomes a moot point. Again, it may not even be an issue in the long run. I don't know.
Put another way, *if* a DSM where to win the "Evo Challenge", IMO, the rules failed, *or* it never was an Evo Challenge to being with.

At some point it becomes too much of a challenge to juggle multiple classes. With the proper thought put into the class definitions, there should only be a need for a handful of classes to suit the breakdown of the combined group (evos/dsms) efficiently. I agree that there are additional concerns that haven't been addressed, or at least discussed to everyone's satisfaction. Aaron? :)

If a DSM dominates the California 4G63 challenge (or whatever it ends up being called), then it would be great, be it a Silver Lancer Evolution VIII (Matt), a silver 2g Eclipse AWD BEEZT, a black 1g AWD Blak94GSX, or whomever 8)


I think what warrants the "Evo Challange" is Evos. So, it makes sense to make this class is for "Evos only" if a DSM dominates... Though on the other hand, if I was running a DSM, I'd only compete if I knew I could be competitive. So we're in a catch-22 situation unless the objectives for each class is communicated up front.

You missed some of the discussion in this thread. Originally it was titled the "Evo Challenge," but then:


Why don't we include the earlier 4G63 turbo cars also? Many of these guys have run track events up and down the west coast for years, and we could have 50 car 4G63 turbo field of cars. You scheduled your first EVO challenge event on top of our existing DSM Day II which was held at Buttonwillow while Speedventures was at Thunderhill. It would only make sense to combine both schedules and have a larger turnout with better support for those who choose to participate.

DSM/EVO Challenge?


Yes please...


John and Josh's suggestion was to call it the 4G63 challenge, not DSM...So, we'll just say for now it's the "California DSM Championship Series", as a working title.

Basically the idea is to find the fastest 4g63 in the state, regardless of whether it's an Evo or another flavor of DSM. So, I don't even know what the latest name is, but a running title edited in Aaron's first post is "DSM/EVO Challenge."


So as long as Aaron's clear wrt expectations, I think it'll all work out.

btw, anyone heard from Aaron over the last few days?

Aaron's only expectations that I've picked up on (very limited experience in person) was that he wants to get all the 4g63 cars together so that the new can learn from the old, we can have some great fun, some great time trial competition, and as much track time as possible.

So where's Aaron again? :twisted:

Hallster
04-04-2004, 09:05 PM
...do you think Aaron will pop his head up before the challenge starts?

Yo Aaron!!! :poke:

<twiddling thumbs>

Sean

Aaron Bitterman
04-14-2004, 04:28 PM
Alrighty, I'm back. Sorry for the long absence. Let's start a rollcall for April 30 (Friday) Streets of Willow. It's the Mitsubishi Performance Driving Club's second event and the first EVO Challenge event, so I thought it might be nice to see if there's going to be more people than just me. I don't like competing against myself because I always lose.

I'll post another reply below this to respond to all the posts above that I didn't reply to. I'm also going to make some changes to the classing to get it finalized as there were still outstanding issues.

So, starting with the rollcall:

1. Aaron Bitterman (EVO-STOCK or MODIFIED)
2. Sean Hall (EVO STOCK)

Aaron Bitterman
04-14-2004, 05:15 PM
As far as what this time trial series is called, I think it should be called the EVO Challenge. It is primarily geared for EVOs and was originally conceived and built for EVOs. Personally I don't mind allowing similar cars to participate, especially ones with the same engine, same make, and much lesser all-around performance (braking, handling). I definately think any Lancer should be allowed to participate and going from "any Lancer" to any originally-equipped 4G63 car isn't much of a leap. I'd rather not call it the 4G63 Challenge purely for marketing reasons as I don't think it will attract as much participation. The EVO is the car of the moment and the future, like it or not.

Given that the EVO is the car of the present and future (like it or not) I welcome cars that essentially comprise its earlier iterations to a greater or lesser extent (DSMs = 4wd, 4G63 motor, etc.). If a non-EVO wins fine. What do you guys think? If a non-EVO wins because the classing is unfair, then we'll change the classing. If they win because they're better drivers... That said, if we EVO drivers decide we don't want DSM's in our class we can always create a separate DSM classing. If Sean is the only one against having them involved then we may keep them for a little longer :).

I've updated the original classing at the top of this thread and made the requested change, re. the airbox.

Hallster
04-14-2004, 08:22 PM
I'm not against having DSMs! I just didn't want to be on the losing end of a platform battle... my current stance is: "I don't care, I just want to go racing!" ;-)

Sean

Aaron Bitterman
04-14-2004, 08:53 PM
my current stance is: "I don't care, I just want to go racing!" ;-)

Sean

My position exactly. Well, so far it's just you and me Sean. Hmmmm, what should we do?

Knower
04-14-2004, 11:16 PM
my current stance is: "I don't care, I just want to go racing!" ;-)

Sean

My position exactly. Well, so far it's just you and me Sean. Hmmmm, what should we do?

Indeed. Once I hear that my DSM cohorts are coming, I'm there.

Rifkin@WORKS
04-21-2004, 12:52 AM
My position exactly. Well, so far it's just you and me Sean. Hmmmm, what should we do?

I just signed up tonight and Pete is going to sign up too if he hasn't already. See you guys next week. :D

GokuSSJ4
04-21-2004, 01:33 AM
Alrighty, I'm back. Sorry for the long absence. Let's start a rollcall for April 30 (Friday) Streets of Willow. It's the Mitsubishi Performance Driving Club's second event and the first EVO Challenge event, so I thought it might be nice to see if there's going to be more people than just me. I don't like competing against myself because I always lose.

I'll post another reply below this to respond to all the posts above that I didn't reply to. I'm also going to make some changes to the classing to get it finalized as there were still outstanding issues.

So, starting with the rollcall:

1. Aaron Bitterman (EVO-STOCK or MODIFIED)
2. Sean Hall (EVO STOCK)

you can add me to the list also , Aaron you said you would have a nice rate going for those that are part of the EOC event which is the day prior to this , can you PM me about it ...

Knower
04-21-2004, 06:10 PM
Alrighty, I'm back.

1. Aaron Bitterman (EVO-STOCK or MODIFIED)
2. Sean Hall (EVO STOCK)[/quote]
3. Rifkin@Works
4. GokuSSJ4
5. Orlando Rojas (DSM-Stock)

And there's at least a couple who've responded as yes on the local SoCalDSM club list (e-mail just sent out with details today by Vlad).

GokuSSJ4
04-21-2004, 06:17 PM
this should be tons of fun after the EOC event , i will put in to practice what i have learn :cool:

Hallster
04-22-2004, 10:58 AM
This is what Aaron told me via e-mail(paraphrased):
EVOs and Mitsubishis: $90 without timing, $100 with timing.

Sean

GokuSSJ4
04-23-2004, 10:08 AM
sound's great !!!! thanks Sean for the reply ....:cool:

Knower
04-23-2004, 06:14 PM
This is what Aaron told me via e-mail(paraphrased):
EVOs and Mitsubishis: $90 without timing, $100 with timing.

Sean

Yup, this is the pricing I heard as well. I made sure to say that I was with the DSM/Evo group when I signed up on the webpage just now. See you guys out there! 8)

(although, actually, I'll probably be in the instructional group for half the day anyway).

Aaron Bitterman
04-23-2004, 07:04 PM
This is in fact the pricing and, regardless of what your registration sheet says, if you're driving a Mitsubishi, DSM, or EVO of any kind you'll get the $90/$100 rate.

GokuSSJ4
04-24-2004, 09:27 AM
im register for the event , see you guys there !!! :cool:

robi
04-24-2004, 02:41 PM
1. Aaron Bitterman (EVO-STOCK or MODIFIED)
2. Sean Hall (EVO STOCK)[/quote]
3. Rifkin@Works
4. GokuSSJ4
5. Orlando Rojas (DSM-Stock)
6. Robi/EVO4FUN=banished to unlimited HELL soooo...I'm bringing my hoosiers!

kaisho99
04-24-2004, 04:30 PM
1. Aaron Bitterman (EVO-STOCK or MODIFIED)
2. Sean Hall (EVO STOCK)
3. Rifkin@Works
4. GokuSSJ4
5. Orlando Rojas (DSM-Stock)
6. Robi/EVO4FUN=banished to unlimited HELL soooo...I'm bringing my hoosiers!
7. Kaisho99 (EVO MOD) think the RA1's will throw me over the edge of stock. :wink:

GokuSSJ4
04-25-2004, 09:58 PM
we sure will see hehehehhe ... im running those as well , shave or not shave for yours Chris ????

Knower
05-11-2004, 04:19 PM
Hey guys, I made this post in response to an e-mail I got from Aaron:

http://socalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2398

Check it out 8)

I had a lot of fun at the first event two Fridays ago. I'm sorry I didn't come meet the people that came. I totally was engrossed in keeping my car on the track, getting rides, filming, and making sure my car was still running (had some loose electrical connector and spark plug gap issues).

I'll post my pictures/videos to this thread once I get them up.

Aaron Bitterman
05-11-2004, 05:17 PM
Hey all. We're inviting everyone back this Friday who attended last Friday for $50 including timing. Most of you know this. Those of you who did not attend our April 30 event can still come this Friday the 14th for the $90 rate.

We already seem to have a number of cars signed up.

MyGlue
05-02-2005, 04:37 PM
Looks and sounds liek a great idea. Too bad i missed out on the first event. I woulda loved to see how i stacked up against other evos. I had a question for you Aaron, would other people be able to run at the DSM/Evo challenge days? The reason i ask is my core of track going friends dont drive evos are dsms. We all love going to speedventures events. keep the good stuff comin

Mike

leaveit2bevo
05-02-2005, 04:51 PM
welcome to last year.

MyGlue
05-04-2005, 03:40 PM
oh haha:)... my bad....