pinging with dp and catback?

[KU7484]

hey everyone. Just came back from a mini evo meet , and we all got into a discussion about pinging. This one guy, who seemed to know his stuff (mind you im very car retard) said that if you get a dp and catback, you're gonna start pinging... He said the only way to avoid it is to get a new ECU, boost controller, and injectors. But with all those mods my 6 year warranty is for sure gonna get voided.

Anyone experiencing any of this?

Should this stop me from getting my RMR downpipe and RMR catback?

[Blak94GSX]

Apparently he doesn't know shit...

[ItsStockOfficer]

He is an idiot.

[KU7484]

can you guys explain why i shouldn't believe him...? and im assuming from your responses that getting a dp and catback won't effect my car, and it won't ping

[ZENTRAEDIevo]

its true, we do all our testing with XS Engineering and listen with a stethescope (sp??) to the car ping when we installed the exhaust system.. we have completely maxed out the stock injectors, mind you we are running a 10.6 af.. you cant tell or hear it driving around on the streets but we can show you our hks datalogger and you can see for yourself.. we do the testing so you can get the right information from a viable source.. i represent DSport magazine, XS engineering and Wicked Street Garage who publish knowledgable information for you.. not just internet talk...

All we are saying its safer and you will get a lot more out of your mods with a Power FC or the Fcon V Pro with tuning, larger injectors, and a boost controller to have a consistant boost pressure..

Robbie.

[Blak94GSX]

can you guys explain why i shouldn't believe him...? and im assuming from your responses that getting a dp and catback won't effect my car, and it won't ping

That's like asking why changing your wheels won't make the engine ping...

Well for the sake of entertainment, let's dig into this deeper:

First off, "ping" is different from knock, so if you want to be technical about it, the engine can blow apart from knock and still not be pinging audibly. On the other hand, the engine might audibly ping and not be experiencing dangerous knock. The Subaru STI for example audibly pings totally stock, but it has very little dangerous knock. So it sounds worse than it is.

On EVOs and most Mitsus for that matter, the engine shouldn't ping unless the timing is way too high, and that can't really happen with the stock ECU setup.

With that said, the engine has some knock even stock, but the ECU's knock suppression is good enough to deal with it and allow some knock but keep dangerous knock under control.

WIth the stock fuel setup, the car uses a MAF sensor that has enough headroom to allow for a lot of mods to the engine and the stock ECU is able to compensate automagically. Certainly doing intake, downpipe, and exhaust will be easily compensated for. The problem comes in that these have the side-effect of raising the boost a tad, which might put the boost level a tad over the limit of the crappy 91 octane fuel we have here. For the most part this shouldn't happen, but the stock boost control is rather poor, so you might want to use something like the Dejon Tools MBC to replace the stock boost control solenoid and help to keep the boost under control in all conditions.

In short, the EVO has very sophisticated engine management stock, and can compensate for a LOT of mods before you need to worry about changing the maps.

[moogle]

Apparently he doesn't know shit...

LOL. Does he own a evo and a board member here? If he is than I don't care, but if his not BUAHAHAHHAHAHH!!! Oh wellz I don't know shit either but I care to laugh alot. :P

[Blak94GSX]

To be fair, I don't own an EVO either, but I am fairly involved with them.

Fortunately the EVO is very similar to the 90-99 Eclipse Turbos, so the systems are the same, just everything on the EVO is on the wrong side of the engine bay :p

[ItsStockOfficer]

its true, we do all our testing with XS Engineering and listen with a stethescope (sp??) to the car ping when we installed the exhaust system.. we have completely maxed out the stock injectors, mind you we are running a 10.6 af.. you cant tell or hear it driving around on the streets but we can show you our hks datalogger and you can see for yourself.. we do the testing so you can get the right information from a viable source.. i represent DSport magazine, XS engineering and Wicked Street Garage who publish knowledgable information for you.. not just internet talk...

All we are saying its safer and you will get a lot more out of your mods with a Power FC or the Fcon V Pro with tuning, larger injectors, and a boost controller to have a consistant boost pressure..

Robbie.

You have a datalogger and your using a stethoscope? The ECU is fully capable of telling you exactly how much detonation is occuring. So tell us the number. If you have the data, share it, if you don't, your opnion is more then worthless.

Post the logs.

You also claim to have completely maxxed out the stock injectors, which means that you are running signifcantly more mod's then stock and running alot more then the 16 psi the EVO runs at redline. An *other wise* stock evo is no where NEAR the 320-350 whp that 560 cc's can support.

[gt40]

You also claim to have completely maxxed out the stock injectors, which means that you are running signifcantly more mod's then stock and running alot more then the 16 psi the EVO runs at redline. An *other wise* stock evo is no where NEAR the 320-350 whp that 560 cc's can support.

If bolting on a downpipe and cat can "ping" then bolting on a turboback, fmic, and a really big turbo should make it go "BOOM". Reality is quite different as the car is set pig rich even at these levels it ran fine for the 3 months before I put on the aem ems:

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/gt40/closeup_dyno_stock_vs_1.jpg

Hooked up to a dyno, multiple sensors and logging the injector duty cycles last year, the car had no problems at those levels with just a walbro thrown in on it. NOT an ideal situation- it was really laggy without tuning.

I put this post up last year back in sept:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38237&highlight=383+whp


I suppose all the exhaust companies out there and shops installing catbacks and turbobacks are all wrong and are just selling destructive product. A little common sense goes a long way. There are probably several thousand evo's out there with a catback or turboback.

[Coolguy949]

Everyone play nice.

[ZENTRAEDIevo]

hey no one said you cant do those mods.. but all we are saying its safer.. if you want to see all the datalogging you have to go to xs engineering its all in their computers... at a 10.6 af at 1.5 bar you max out stock injectors..

all we have is intake,exhaust,boost controller and fcon v pro.. thats all..

[gt40]

This one guy, who seemed to know his stuff (mind you im very car retard) said that if you get a dp and catback, you're gonna start pinging... He said the only way to avoid it is to get a new ECU, boost controller, and injectors.

originally posted by blak94gsx

That's like asking why changing your wheels won't make the engine ping...

[BOVBILLY]

LETS ALL JUST GIVE EACH OTHER A BIG HUG!

[leaveit2bevo]

hey no one said you cant do those mods.. but all we are saying its safer.. if you want to see all the datalogging you have to go to xs engineering its all in their computers... at a 10.6 af at 1.5 bar you max out stock injectors..

all we have is intake,exhaust,boost controller and fcon v pro.. thats all..

So how do you explain this:?
If bolting on a downpipe and cat can "ping" then bolting on a turboback, fmic, and a really big turbo should make it go "BOOM". Reality is quite different as the car is set pig rich even at these levels it ran fine for the 3 months before I put on the aem ems:

[Ricardon]

Sounds like someone is trying to sell you something. And actually, it's got to be one of the worst fear-based sales pitches I've ever heard in my life!! Watch out for this guy, he might just try and sell you a couple of bottles of blinker fluid!!! Watch out with the turbo-back exhaust though, I hear that they void the warranty on your muffler bearings!

[leaveit2bevo]

ya he is trying to pitch a place that only makes 280whp with 5k

[drmosh]

Here is my opinion on the matter. I met with the guy last night. He immediately said the pinging with intake and exhaust. I was truly skeptical at first. He seemed a little too enthusiastic about the whole pinging thing. Now what he may have mean't as pinging may not again, be necessarily knock. He said he hates the stock EVO ECU... I dunno, I think the stock ECU retards knock quite well. He also said he heard the pinging on a stethoscope, so I can't comment about that till I actually see it. Is the stock ECU not retarding timing enough ?? I dunno, this is the first I've heard of this.

The guy seemed to know what he was talking about, but we'll see.

[ItsStockOfficer]

Here is my opinion on the matter. I met with the guy last night. He immediately said the pinging with intake and exhaust. I was truly skeptical at first. He seemed a little too enthusiastic about the whole pinging thing. Now what he may have mean't as pinging may not again, be necessarily knock. He said he hates the stock EVO ECU... I dunno, I think the stock ECU retards knock quite well. He also said he heard the pinging on a stethoscope, so I can't comment about that till I actually see it. Is the stock ECU not retarding timing enough ?? I dunno, this is the first I've heard of this.

The guy seemed to know what he was talking about, but we'll see.

They don't ping.

[drmosh]

Here is my opinion on the matter. I met with the guy last night. He immediately said the pinging with intake and exhaust. I was truly skeptical at first. He seemed a little too enthusiastic about the whole pinging thing. Now what he may have mean't as pinging may not again, be necessarily knock. He said he hates the stock EVO ECU... I dunno, I think the stock ECU retards knock quite well. He also said he heard the pinging on a stethoscope, so I can't comment about that till I actually see it. Is the stock ECU not retarding timing enough ?? I dunno, this is the first I've heard of this.

The guy seemed to know what he was talking about, but we'll see.

They don't ping.

You sound exactly like the other guy, everyone thinks they know definitively.

[Ricardon]

They don't ping.

THEY DON'T PING

[Ricardon]

Almost sounds like something Shiv would try and sell

[wickedstgarage]

Ok I am the one doing all the testing, and I just have to say that yes it does ping. All you guys with eclipse experience can throw that shit out the window, because it is a new style ecu. It doesnt use a compensation ignition map any more. They have now switched to a multiple map system that switches in between the maps. If you dont believe it then go to the dyno and do it yourself. See if you can get 2 dyno passes back to back that match. Stick a stetho on there an listen for yourself. I could honestly careless what you message board homos think. I know the truth from testing. I have the graphs to prove everything. If you want to see it yourself call XS engineering and ask yourself. I am sure they would be more than happy to show you.

[wickedstgarage]

ya he is trying to pitch a place that only makes 280whp with 5k

We made 280 at 10.8 AF. If you cant see the reasoning behind that, then I feel sorry for you. I hope you think of this when you have engine failure. Just remember that there is a reason that all the magazines go to XS to have work done, that they are as backed up with work as they are, and that you have to talk shit through the internet.

[Blak94GSX]

This thread was never about XS Engineering, or any vendor for that matter...

You just posted stupid shit from dreamland claiming to be from XS Engineering and in the process making them look bad. I think you shouldn't claim to represent a shop unless you are going to post useful information.

[Ricardon]

This thread was never about XS Engineering, or any vendor for that matter...

You just posted stupid shit from dreamland claiming to be from XS Engineering and in the process making them look bad. I think you shouldn't claim to represent a shop unless you are going to post useful information.

I wish I would have been able to post this first, Black94GSX! wickedstgarage, XS engineering is cool, true, but not ALL the magazines go there to do testing. As if. There is a shop that MORE magazines use to their testing MORE than XS. Like it matters anyway! I love it when people use the names of tuning shops as fuel for their argument. How about building a motor that has an equal or in many cases greater amount of hp that all these HUGE NAME shops do that will last 3 times as long? It's possible, and I can prove it. Blowing motors with weaker numbers, where do I sign up? YOU my friend are the internet race car driver that you are accusing everyone else of being. You take a small amount of info, stuff you heard from your friend that heard it from "this guy" who had a buddy who's neighbors car was worked on at a shop, and the guy that sweeps the floor there told him that...and blow it way out of proportion. What's worse, your'e claiming it as your own, discovered info. Dude, get over it, it's the internet! If I were to post that the sky is blue, out of 10 guys, 6 would agree, 2 would disagree and 2 would say I was a fucking idiot. Oh, and this wasn't a flame war before you started in with the namecalling. Put your face where my avatar stops! OKAYBYYYYEEEEE!

[gt40]

YOU my friend are the internet race car driver that you are accusing everyone else of being. You take a small amount of info, stuff you heard from your friend that heard it from "this guy" who had a buddy who's neighbors car was worked on at a shop, and the guy that sweeps the floor there told him that...and blow it way out of proportion. What's worse, your'e claiming it as your own, discovered info. Dude, get over it, it's the internet! If I were to post that the sky is blue, out of 10 guys, 6 would agree, 2 would disagree and 2 would say I was a fucking idiot. Oh, and this wasn't a flame war before you started in with the namecalling. Put your face where my avatar stops! OKAYBYYYYEEEEE!

Classic! I think we need to move on though...

[ItsStockOfficer]

Ok I am the one doing all the testing, and I just have to say that yes it does ping. All you guys with eclipse experience can throw that shit out the window, because it is a new style ecu. It doesnt use a compensation ignition map any more. They have now switched to a multiple map system that switches in between the maps. If you dont believe it then go to the dyno and do it yourself. See if you can get 2 dyno passes back to back that match. Stick a stetho on there an listen for yourself. I could honestly careless what you message board homos think. I know the truth from testing. I have the graphs to prove everything. If you want to see it yourself call XS engineering and ask yourself. I am sure they would be more than happy to show you.

Feel free to post said Graphs. Were they drawn with an orange crayon while you listened through your stethoscope?

[han74j]

whats ping? and whats knock?? hahaha dont laugh but please explain.

[leaveit2bevo]

Ok I am the one doing all the testing, and I just have to say that yes it does ping. All you guys with eclipse experience can throw that shit out the window, because it is a new style ecu. It doesnt use a compensation ignition map any more. They have now switched to a multiple map system that switches in between the maps. If you dont believe it then go to the dyno and do it yourself. See if you can get 2 dyno passes back to back that match. Stick a stetho on there an listen for yourself. I could honestly careless what you message board homos think. I know the truth from testing. I have the graphs to prove everything. If you want to see it yourself call XS engineering and ask yourself. I am sure they would be more than happy to show you.

WTF just post the evidence or shut the fuck up its that simple. If the shit is true POST IT. your exhibiting man who thinking because your still a non reflective thinker :roll:

[wickedstgarage]

I am not here to fight with you guys. I am just helping you guys out by giving you facts. I could honestly careless what you guys think of me. And no I am not getting this from 2nd hand information from my friend. I have spent hours and hours on the dyno with Eric Hsu. I have worked on more fast cars than you will in a lifetime. You can read for yourself my results in DSport in the coming issues.

Look the reality of the matter is that it knocks after installing an exhaust. I tested the HKS Hiper, Injen prototype and the DC. It knocks at peak torque and tails off to trace knock after that. Race gas will fix the problem but who is going to run on high octane all the time. You dont believe me then call Dave Buscher or Eric Hsu and ask them yourself. It might not blow up your car but do a compression check in 20k miles.

Just to appease you guys I will write a column listing my history as a tuner in this industry. Oh my name is Phi Phung

[rizalhoo]

whats ping? and whats knock?? hahaha dont laugh but please explain.

yes, can anyone explain whats ping and whats knock?

[ItsStockOfficer]

I am not here to fight with you guys. I am just helping you guys out by giving you facts. I could honestly careless what you guys think of me. And no I am not getting this from 2nd hand information from my friend. I have spent hours and hours on the dyno with Eric Hsu. I have worked on more fast cars than you will in a lifetime. You can read for yourself my results in DSport in the coming issues.

Look the reality of the matter is that it knocks after installing an exhaust. I tested the HKS Hiper, Injen prototype and the DC. It knocks at peak torque and tails off to trace knock after that. Race gas will fix the problem but who is going to run on high octane all the time. You dont believe me then call Dave Buscher or Eric Hsu and ask them yourself. It might not blow up your car but do a compression check in 20k miles.

Just to appease you guys I will write a column listing my history as a tuner in this industry. Oh my name is Phi Phung

We don't care about your history, all we care about is proof.

[Dr. Evo]

Point blank puting on a dp and a cat back is not going to raise your need for fuel to the engine (ie. create a higher boost situation). So the addition of just an exhaust system will not cause ping or detonation, unless that exhaust is too close to the oil pan raising underhood temperatures, which I think has ben discussed on here, doesn't tend to. I do, however, agree that to take full advantage of any mod the PCM has to be told of the mods ("tuned") and air/fuel, timing etc. adjusted accordingly.

[KU7484]

sooooooooo.... what do we do now? =)

[Blak94GSX]

Go out and install your downpipe, exhaust, intake, boost controller and boost gauge...

[Ricardon]

Go out and install your downpipe, exhaust, intake, boost controller and boost gauge...

You forgot one thing....... :skid:

[han74j]

whats ping? and whats knock?? hahaha dont laugh but please explain.

yes, can anyone explain whats ping and whats knock?

hum..... anyone??? whats ping and knock??

[ItsStockOfficer]

whats ping? and whats knock?? hahaha dont laugh but please explain.

yes, can anyone explain whats ping and whats knock?

hum..... anyone??? whats ping and knock??

Knock/detonation is basically gas preigniting due to high cylinder temps. That can basically cause you to tryto drive the rod's stright down through the crank or even spin the engine backwards.

Ping is basically audible knock.

You can get very detailed explanaions of both from google.