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KU7484
03-09-2004, 01:05 AM
if i get cams, are there any pre-required mods that i should most definetely have put in already? Or mods that i should add in if i get the cams?

And do you think Huntington Beach would void my warranty if i got cams?/

GokuSSJ4
03-09-2004, 01:19 AM
if warranty is an issue , then dont get the cams...
If you plan to get them , then you have the options of hks 264/264, 264/272, 272/272 ,works 269/269
if you plan to rev pass your stock rev limiter with any cam you required upgrading your valvetrain and ti retainers.
you can run all of this cams on stock ecu with no problem but to obtain the best out of them , you can run a SAFC with a boost controller and have it tune properly , a flash , a piggy back like APS - Xede ,UTEC or a stand alone . It depends how much you are willing to spend ..

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 01:21 AM
I heard from robi that for the track its best to rock the 264 so you have more low end torque coming out of corners. Anyone thought of running the JUN cams?

wilson1
03-09-2004, 01:26 AM
fyi, Works is coming out with the 272/274!

GokuSSJ4
03-09-2004, 01:28 AM
have you seen the lift on Jun and tomei or piper cams .Since the lift is huge valvetrain is a must and unless you plan to be hard core then thats the way to go ... thats why i didnt mention them ...

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 01:29 AM
ya I think you need retainers and all sorts of crap to rock the JUN but I heard there deff one of the best cams.

drmosh
03-09-2004, 01:58 AM
I heard from robi that for the track its best to rock the 264 so you have more low end torque coming out of corners. Anyone thought of running the JUN cams?

You might as well be like gt40 and look at piper cams if yer looking at Jun cams, with the Ti lifters/retainers.

TrickedOutEVOVIII
03-09-2004, 02:46 AM
so the 264/264 are the best for low end torque?? and the 272/272 are the best for top end or what??

gt40
03-09-2004, 08:14 AM
Duration is one factor in cam design- lift and assentric lobes are just a couple of others. piper makes "264 cams" along with jun or tomei and others but they are different lift than say hks. The hks are proven and fit the stock valve train. The higher lift one's like I am looking at and are different so the important thing seems to be matching the cam profile to what you are trying to do for a specific engine...

mprtklr
03-09-2004, 09:37 AM
when i did my cams, i did the springs just to be safe, i felt after tearing my heads apart, the stock springs looked pretty maxxed out, and i installed HKS springs, even though i only used the 264/264's. and i chose those because they offered the closest to stock idle characteristics and enough of a gain without the negatives of the 272's and such.

GokuSSJ4
03-09-2004, 09:43 AM
if i do springs , at least i would go with Tomei or pipers . Not with a huge duration . Might as well get the best or the most out of the valvetrain ...

ItsStockOfficer
03-09-2004, 10:14 AM
Stock is the best for low end torque, but 264's are a minor sacrifice, while 272's are a noticeable sacrifice.

han74j
03-09-2004, 10:22 AM
and another u should work towards the engine.

exp: cat back, cat, dp, exhaust manifold, then engine mods

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 01:03 PM
Stock is the best for low end torque, but 264's are a minor sacrifice, while 272's are a noticeable sacrifice.

how is that true, everybody who gets cams tells me there is a grip more tq with cams.

TrickedOutEVOVIII
03-09-2004, 01:24 PM
which cams...thats what im asking...the 264s, 272s or the combo....what are the ups and downs of each one

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 01:58 PM
264 gives you more low end for road courses, 272 gives you about 5whp up top but loses low end.

GokuSSJ4
03-09-2004, 02:21 PM
i would like to see same car or similar set ups being compare with the 264/264 , 272/272
that way you can see what gains there between the both .
I will look if shiv has posted any 264/272 vs 272/272 sheets to compare the difference between them ....

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 05:15 PM
lol dosent shiv have misleading dyno numbers?

GokuSSJ4
03-09-2004, 05:56 PM
lol misleading lol .... now i need to find a usefull resource ????
At least there something to compare hehhe...

blurr
03-09-2004, 07:05 PM
Look here for a comparison of cams in a 4G63. This isn't 100% relevent as it isn't an evo but it is the same basic motor.

http://www.automotosports.com/cam_test.asp

han74j
03-09-2004, 07:19 PM
like they said before 272 gives u high end, 264 low end, so if u go 272/264 u get more in the middle. 272 on exhuast and 264 on intake

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 08:09 PM
Stock is the best for low end torque, but 264's are a minor sacrifice, while 272's are a noticeable sacrifice.

Explain this then:

Stock Mitsubishi Camshafts:

Peak HP: 309.5

Peak TRQ: 295.3

Spool up on street: quick, full boost by 3.2K RPM in 3rd gear with good power when off boost and as it's coming onto boost.

HKS 264 Intake 264 Exhaust

Peak HP: 323.1

Peak TRQ: 333.0

Spool up on street: As good as stock (3.2K RPM), with off boost power the same if not better than stock.



HKS 264 Intake 272 Exhaust

Peak HP: 324.2

Peak TRQ: 333.1

Spool up on street: Slightly slower than stock (3.3K RPM in 3rd gear) and a very slight loss in power in off boost conditions.



HKS 272 Intake 272 Exhaust

Peak HP: 325.2

Peak TRQ: 323.4

Spool up on street: Slower than stock, full boost by 3.4K RPM in 3rd gear with a slight loss in power in off boost conditions.

looks to me like stock is lower in both tq and hp

ItsStockOfficer
03-09-2004, 08:49 PM
Stock is the best for low end torque, but 264's are a minor sacrifice, while 272's are a noticeable sacrifice.

Explain this then:

Stock Mitsubishi Camshafts:

Peak HP: 309.5

Peak TRQ: 295.3

Spool up on street: quick, full boost by 3.2K RPM in 3rd gear with good power when off boost and as it's coming onto boost.

HKS 264 Intake 264 Exhaust

Peak HP: 323.1

Peak TRQ: 333.0

Spool up on street: As good as stock (3.2K RPM), with off boost power the same if not better than stock.



HKS 264 Intake 272 Exhaust

Peak HP: 324.2

Peak TRQ: 333.1

Spool up on street: Slightly slower than stock (3.3K RPM in 3rd gear) and a very slight loss in power in off boost conditions.



HKS 272 Intake 272 Exhaust

Peak HP: 325.2

Peak TRQ: 323.4

Spool up on street: Slower than stock, full boost by 3.4K RPM in 3rd gear with a slight loss in power in off boost conditions.

looks to me like stock is lower in both tq and hpThat makes some sense, as I would expect more full boost power due to increased lift...

The sacrifice I was refering to was off boost and suring spool up., but they say other wise, which is very cool and not what I would have expected, so your still right.

EVO stock cam profiles are definitley different then stock 1g cam profiles unfortuneatley so we can't use that comparison for your cars.

Also, on a side note, they were using too small a turbo already close to maxed out to check the larger cams, which is why there is a brick wall in peak HP. Had that turbo continued blowing air efficiently until 7500, it would have been a much more significant difference.

leaveit2bevo
03-09-2004, 09:51 PM
That makes some sense, as I would expect more full boost power due to increased lift...

The sacrifice I was refering to was off boost and suring spool up., but they say other wise, which is very cool and not what I would have expected, so your still right.

EVO stock cam profiles are definitley different then stock 1g cam profiles unfortuneatley so we can't use that comparison for your cars.

Also, on a side note, they were using too small a turbo already close to maxed out to check the larger cams, which is why there is a brick wall in peak HP. Had that turbo continued blowing air efficiently until 7500, it would have been a much more significant difference.

ya but how often on the road course are you out of the power range? I was refering to coming out of corners with more torque, as im sure your aware of if you are coming out of a corner below 3k you fucked up somewhere.

ItsStockOfficer
03-10-2004, 12:36 AM
That makes some sense, as I would expect more full boost power due to increased lift...

The sacrifice I was refering to was off boost and suring spool up., but they say other wise, which is very cool and not what I would have expected, so your still right.

EVO stock cam profiles are definitley different then stock 1g cam profiles unfortuneatley so we can't use that comparison for your cars.

Also, on a side note, they were using too small a turbo already close to maxed out to check the larger cams, which is why there is a brick wall in peak HP. Had that turbo continued blowing air efficiently until 7500, it would have been a much more significant difference.

ya but how often on the road course are you out of the power range? I was refering to coming out of corners with more torque, as im sure your aware of if you are coming out of a corner below 3k you fucked up somewhere.

Definitley true. 264's sound like an all around great mod, for a road racer. For a street/strip warrior, the 272's are unbeatable if you have the turbo to pull em...which EVO's might stock, hard to say without dyno testing, but the EVO 16g is a far better unit then the S16g that comparison uses...

GokuSSJ4
03-10-2004, 10:41 AM
the only way to trully compare is the dyno , to be able to see what gains you have on the entire power band and not just peak power . As you can see the 264/272 make barly a bit more then 264/264 but i would like to compare what are the difference in midrange .. an for that a dyno is a must to see .. To bad that cams are a pain on Evos to install and they dont go in as easy as other cars , since the timing belt .
Also comparing the 264/264 to the 272/272 and even the tomei cams , which have a 260 degree but a 11.5mm lift . If there worth the upgrade hehehe ....

perversity
03-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Someone already posted this on a different thread, so sorry for the duplication. However, this article may help answer some of the cam questions raised above...

http://www.automotosports.com/cam_test.asp

GokuSSJ4
03-11-2004, 11:25 AM
i would love to see this be compare on an EVo but this is the closest to it
264/264 VS 264/272 if you notice the graph there pretty much just about equal as far as mid range area , not by much difference on them..At least on this application the 264/272 combo show a lot better midrange (not by much ) the 264/264 ....:cool:
http://www.automotosports.com/HKS%20264%20264%20VS%20264%20In%20272%20Ex.JPG



264/264 VS 272/272 were you can see the big difference in midrange , were you benefit the most on the 264/264 combo compare with the 272/272
http://www.automotosports.com/HKS%20272%20272%20Vs%20264%20264.JPG[/b]

Blak94GSX
03-11-2004, 02:27 PM
The basic rule of thumb with cams is to match the turbo profile. With the stock turbo the stock cams provide a smooth transition between the off-boost areas and the on the boost areas. Mitsu spends a lot of effort trying to make their turbo cars feel like NA V8s. You can see that in the stock intake setup, stock turbo profile, cams, intake manifold runner design, etc.

If you upgrade the turbo to something bigger, then by all means go straight to the 272 cams. These are great 5000-9000 RPM cam, but if your turbo runs out of breath past 7000 RPM then it is a waste. The 264/272 is a great compromise and provides improved top end with decent midrange.

If running a midrange turbo, like the stock turbo and the car is set up for road racing, the 264s with additional lift would be ideal.

Some overgeneralized truths about 4G63 cams, but true enough for this discussion:

-The intake profile controls how rowdy the idle is. 264 is about the most you want to go for a stockish sounding idle.

-The exhaust side of the motor flows a lot less than the intake side, so you need more duration or at least the same as the intake side.

-Cam timing is critical. More retard on the exhaust side and more advance on the intake side will give more top end and still decent spool. Advanced intake controls spool and idle quality, while retarded exhaust allows the combustion pressure to do its magic a tad bit longer as well as allow for improved scavenging between cycles. Don't go throwing on cams and then blindly changing the cam timing. Most aftermarket cams have a certain amount of timing change built-in. Some due to problems with manufacturing consistency, and some due to proper design...

GokuSSJ4
03-11-2004, 10:46 PM
i wonder if the 269/269 by WORKS give you about the same results that the 264/272 combo . Also what good valvetrain do you recommend ?? HKS , JUN , TOMEI , WORKS ??
since i want something capable of 8-8500 rpms with no problems , i know other things come in to mind like bottom end. But at least is a start to be able to rev to 8k with no worries ....

Blak94GSX
03-11-2004, 11:27 PM
The stock valvetrain will run to 9k, but it won't live at 9k all day. If you lighten things up a bit with lighter retainers and slightly stiffer springs to keep the rockers on the cam lobes, it will live all day at 9k if you want.

Stick with single coil springs not the goofy dual coils which break for some reason.

ItsStockOfficer
03-11-2004, 11:41 PM
Scot, I don't know how much you have been following EVO stuff, but the EVO retainers are lighter then any titanium retainers made for our cars....which is cool...

Whats bad is that Buschur tested their valve springs and they were about half as stiff as 14 year old 1g springs he had layign around the shop. Extremely weak.

GokuSSJ4
03-12-2004, 12:33 AM
so what valvetrain do you guys recommend ???
i know buschur uses ferreira (which is find for drag ) but for road racing its a different thing since you attend to stay in certain rpms way longer then you would at a 1/4 mile coarse.
I know ferreira are dual springs and are stiff . I want to make sure i run the right combination of springs and not end up with something that is way to stiff for the cams

Blak94GSX
03-12-2004, 12:48 AM
After some further research, it looks like the stock spring setup will be fine for road racing with 8000 RPM as the max. If you have a midrange power turbo, it isn't going to make power much past 7700 RPM anyway, and with the HKS 264 or 272 cams the additional lift will still be fine with the stock springs. The rocker ratio is different than a DSM and thus the spring rates are different. For a 9000 RPM drag racing setup some stiffer springs might be safer.

GokuSSJ4
03-12-2004, 02:35 AM
thanks , since road racing is mainly my goal and not a drag queen :lol: and the P2 the most it revs too is 7800 but i dont think i will be reving the car that high...