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View Full Version : Racing Brake Pad Research Conclusion - Ferodo, Pagid, PF



Hallster
09-28-2004, 12:50 PM
From the data and information I've found for Performance Friction, Ferodo and Pagid, I think the Pagid RS14, RS19, Ferodo DS2500 and Performance Friction PF97 pads strike a good balance between performance and rotor wear for track use. I went with the Pagid RS14s, though the RS19, PF97, and Ferodo DS2500 might be okay for track use as well, just not as agressive as the RS14s. From the research I've done, here's a summary of the pads, from mild to wild:

Ferodo DS2000
Coeffecient of friction ~.42; upper temp range = not given
Performance Friction 97
Coeffecient of friction ~ not given; upper temp range = claimed 1100c(no graph available)
Ferodo DS2500
Coeffecient of friction ~ .5; upper temp range = 500c
Pagid RS19
Coeffecient of friction ~.45; upper temp range = 600c
Pagid RS14
Coeffecient of friction ~.5; upper temp range = 650c
Ferodo DS3000
Coeffecient of friction ~.6; upper temp range = 750c(Ferodo's graph only goes to 500c)
RS15
Coeffecient of friction ~.6; upper temp range = 750c

I'm a little suspicious of the PF97 pads as Performance Friction claims these pads have a operating temperature of 75°C to 1100°C(2012 degrees F!!!) and yet are "extremely easy on the discs with very low wear". So if the pf97 pads do go up to 1100c, I don't see how these pads are going to be kind to rotors. So without a torque graph to fill in the missing information, I'm not sure how these pads will really perform. But since the lower temperature range of the PF97 pad is lower than the Ferodo DS2500, my hunch is the PF97 pads are slightly milder than the DS2500. Therefore I've placed the PF97 pad between the DS2000 and the DS2500s.

Here's the chart for Pagid's pads along with an explanation I received from them when I asked Pagid for the coefficient of friction:


"Since the coefficient of friction is related among other things to the
rotor material we do not show friction levels in this graph. It is only
considered to show the difference among the Pagid compounds.
We run our dyno tests however always on cast iron racing rotors.
So as a clue for you, the first line where the RS4-2-1 starts is µ 0.4
the 2nd line is µ 0.5 and the 3rd, where the RS15 ends is µ 0.6."

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/album118/Pagidpadcomparison.jpg

Hallster

toku-one
09-28-2004, 12:57 PM
very nice

i think ill stick with the ferodo ds2500s and add some rotora slotted rotors.

Absinthe
09-28-2004, 05:00 PM
did you ever hear Bevo's car? maybe they are easy on everything but the ears?

qalthough Im inclined to be a little suspicious of those claims too.

leaveit2bevo
09-28-2004, 05:56 PM
my car was so loud because my rotors were screwed, robi has track tested those pads and found them to be the best for our brakes.

Hallster
09-28-2004, 06:06 PM
From mild to wild*:

Ferodo DS2000
Coeffecient of friction ~.42; upper temp range = not given
Project Mu TYPE HC-TITAN Kai
Coeffecient of friction ~0.35~0.60μ; upper temp range = claimed 800c. Realistic: 300-400c. (my personal experience tells me 300-400c is realistic)
Performance Friction 97
Coeffecient of friction ~ not given; upper temp range = claimed 1100c(no graph available)
Ferodo DS2500
Coeffecient of friction ~ .5; upper temp range = 500c
Pagid RS19
Coeffecient of friction ~.45; upper temp range = 600c
Pagid RS14
Coeffecient of friction ~.5; upper temp range = 650c
Ferodo DS3000
Coeffecient of friction ~.6; upper temp range = 750c(Ferodo's graph only goes to 500c)
RS15
Coeffecient of friction ~.6; upper temp range = 750c

I've update the list to include Project Mu TYPE HC-TITAN Kai pads. These are the pads I'm currently running in my car and I'd qualify these pads applicable for spirited driving or *light* track use. Based on my experience on the track, the 800c claimed effective rotor temp is totally bogus - marketing hype at its finest. Based on what I've heard about the DS2500s, the DS2500s perform better than these pads and therefore the Titan Kai's are closest to the bottom of the list.

*:I assume no liability for the use of this information. Contact the brake pad manufacturer for information regarding your specific application.

Hallster
10-13-2004, 03:54 PM
Here's my impressions of the Pagid pads after I ran Buttonwillow Oct 3rd and 4th, with the following set-up:

Pagid RS14 brake pads
Neo 610 Synthetic Brake Fluid
Brake Ducting
SS Brake Lines
My car has mild improvements in HP, running Toyo 255 Ra-1s.

With this setup, the brakes were totally adequate for track usage. After two days of hard track usage the rotors were in good shape and didn't show any signs of warpage during or after the event.

With that said, the brakes weren't totally ideal though - there were times were the pedal got hard. My hunch is higher temperature pads, like the DS3000s or RS15s would of solved this, though at the risk of warping the rotors.

I think the stock rotors aren't very high-quality and as a result prone to warpage under racing conditions.

Overall, I think the brakes are totally adequate for track usage. They don't squeak either.
So at this time, I'll keep this setup until something breaks.

Hallster

robi
10-13-2004, 07:41 PM
The main reason I run PF 97's is the flat torque responce as the rotor slows down...The other reason (free bonus) is the turn your calipers black with the heat they take...I have had 8 sets of diferent front rotors on my car and none have "warped" I have had heat induced cracking before I ducted the brakes

trannb
10-13-2004, 08:00 PM
With all the recent Endless SS-S talk, any idea how they fare against these other brake pads?

Chris in SD
10-13-2004, 10:30 PM
With all the recent Endless SS-S talk, any idea how they fare against these other brake pads?

Endless SS-S are not race pads, just really good street and occasional track pads. They have a very wide operating temp, but I'm sure actual track pads (like Endless CC-Rs) would work much better for track sessions.

trannb
10-13-2004, 10:58 PM
Endless SS-S are not race pads, just really good street and occasional track pads. They have a very wide operating temp

That's along the lines of something I wanted to hear. Any idea how much they'll take before they crap out? I mean, I know what stock pads do and I know what PF97s do. I have a vague idea of how the DS3000s perform.

Chris in SD
10-13-2004, 11:08 PM
I have the SS-S (along with some of the other guys). I installed them in May and have run them very hard and just daily stuff. They are very potent, esp. on initial bite. They dust up a little bit more than stock, but not bad. I can't comment on track-day lifespan since I haven't tracked them yet, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night... :wink:

Hallster
10-14-2004, 11:33 AM
The main reason I run PF 97's is the flat torque responce as the rotor slows down...The other reason (free bonus) is the turn your calipers black with the heat they take...I have had 8 sets of diferent front rotors on my car and none have "warped" I have had heat induced cracking before I ducted the brakes

The RS14s felt flat too. ie I didn't come into any corner finding myself overbraking the car. the torque graph above indicates that too.

Yeah, my calipers are brownbos too. ;)

Part of the reason im thinking the rotors might be, uh, "marginal", is the other evo guy that was with us at Buttonwillow, ended up leaving the event with warped rotors. He was running DS3000s and Motul fluid... although I'm not sure if he was giving his car a cool-down lap before coming into the pits.

I just wish someone else would do all the research and tell me what the ideal track setup using stock brakes are. ;-)

The next thing I'll try though is some vented/slotted rotors and different fluid(in no particular order)

Hallster

Chris in SD
10-14-2004, 11:54 AM
The next thing I'll try though is some vented/slotted rotors and different fluid(in no particular order)

Hallster

I am running ATE Super Blue now, but I have heard from very good sources that Castrol SRF is the BEST (but expensive as hell).

As far as rotors go, I have the Endless 2-piece slotted ones and they seem pretty good. I've heard good things about the Project Mu ones, too. What I am really trying to find is a good AP Racing or Alcon setup.

hagakure
10-14-2004, 11:59 AM
I have the SS-S (along with some of the other guys). I installed them in May and have run them very hard and just daily stuff. They are very potent, esp. on initial bite. They dust up a little bit more than stock, but not bad. I can't comment on track-day lifespan since I haven't tracked them yet, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night... :wink:


I've run the SS-S pads at two track days so far. I would consider myself fairly good at threshold braking. At thunderhill and at buttonwillow the pads have held up very well. I run good fluid, stainless lines, stock rotors, no cooling ducting, and I have been fine. I like these pads a lot so far.


Percy

jondukes
10-24-2004, 01:34 PM
the ptoject mu b-force was insufficient for track use i could have done much better with some more track-quality pads

robi
10-24-2004, 02:46 PM
Yeah the Titan Kai's are the only ones that worked for me..(when I wasn't running PF 97's

GokuSSJ4
10-24-2004, 05:55 PM
Yeah the Titan Kai's are the only ones that worked for me..(when I wasn't running PF 97'slove the performance at the track with the Titan Kai's pads, time to upgrade the stock lines to SS and to Motul Fluid :cool:

jondukes
10-24-2004, 06:08 PM
damn goku still stock lines,i thaught for sure you did that
when the fluid is near boiling cant the lines(stok)bust off from the heat pressure

GokuSSJ4
10-24-2004, 06:15 PM
damn goku still stock lines,i thaught for sure you did that
when the fluid is near boiling cant the lines(stok)bust off from the heat pressurealmost at the end of the day (it was a long advance session) i felt the brakes fading, which meant the fluid was starting to boil or the stock lines spanding.
but that will be taking care of this Monday since im getting SS lines and Motul fluid to get some serious braking :)
other wise i would of ran with you at the open track session

Hallster
10-25-2004, 10:56 AM
The next thing I'll try though is some vented/slotted rotors and different fluid(in no particular order)

Hallster

I am running ATE Super Blue now, but I have heard from very good sources that Castrol SRF is the BEST (but expensive as hell).

As far as rotors go, I have the Endless 2-piece slotted ones and they seem pretty good. I've heard good things about the Project Mu ones, too. What I am really trying to find is a good AP Racing or Alcon setup.


Yeah, castrol is the best, but as you pointed out, its too costly(for me) to consider it as the fluid of choice.

Two piece rotors will probably be my next major brake upgrade. I still need to do a little research though.

Hallster

Absinthe
10-25-2004, 11:25 AM
damn either you guys are hard on you brakes or Im a giant P....

never had any issues even on the full stock set-up at SOW.

Hallster
10-25-2004, 11:26 AM
Something to consider - your brakes might be great now, but are you driving at 100% of your car's capability? If not, when you get to ~100%, all of sudden your breaks may not be that great. :(

Hallster

Absinthe
10-25-2004, 11:37 AM
My brakes got upgraded when I cooked them at ButtonWillow, its always something I have been wary of after the number of times I fried them in my WRX.

GokuSSJ4
10-25-2004, 11:42 AM
damn either you guys are hard on you brakes or Im a giant P....

never had any issues even on the full stock set-up at SOW.

i have notice the brakes or fluids to boil when running CCW (specially coming into the skidpad at 110mph+ and hammering the brakes kicking in ABS.
im upgrading to SS lines and Motul fluid which should take care of the problem. After the last track event the calipers are completly brown.

Hallster
10-25-2004, 11:47 AM
damn goku still stock lines,i thaught for sure you did that
when the fluid is near boiling cant the lines(stok)bust off from the heat pressurealmost at the end of the day (it was a long advance session) i felt the brakes fading, which meant the fluid was starting to boil or the stock lines spanding.
but that will be taking care of this Monday since im getting SS lines and Motul fluid to get some serious braking :)
other wise i would of ran with you at the open track session

When you exceed the temperature of the pads, the pedal will remain firm, but the car will not slow down as it normally would.

When you exceed the temperature of the fluid, the pedal will get soft. (ie pedal goes to the floor, Depends absorb the braking anxiety ;)

When I was running Titan Kai pads with Neo610 synth brake fluid, the pads would go away after about two laps on big willow. I'd compensate for this by not being as agressive with the brakes.

Hallster

GokuSSJ4
10-25-2004, 11:50 AM
damn goku still stock lines,i thaught for sure you did that
when the fluid is near boiling cant the lines(stok)bust off from the heat pressurealmost at the end of the day (it was a long advance session) i felt the brakes fading, which meant the fluid was starting to boil or the stock lines spanding.
but that will be taking care of this Monday since im getting SS lines and Motul fluid to get some serious braking :)
other wise i would of ran with you at the open track session

When you exceed the temperature of the pads, the pedal will remain firm, but the car will not slow down as it normally would.

When you exceed the temperature of the fluid, the pedal will get soft. (ie pedal goes to the floor, Depends absorb the braking anxiety ;)

When I was running Titan Kai pads with Neo610 synth brake fluid, the pads would go away after about two laps on big willow. I'd compensate for this by not being as agressive with the breaks.

Hallster

then it was the temp of the fluid, since the pedal would get soft.

erikgj
10-25-2004, 12:22 PM
The next thing I'll try though is some vented/slotted rotors and different fluid(in no particular order)

Hallster

I am running ATE Super Blue now, but I have heard from very good sources that Castrol SRF is the BEST (but expensive as hell).

As far as rotors go, I have the Endless 2-piece slotted ones and they seem pretty good. I've heard good things about the Project Mu ones, too. What I am really trying to find is a good AP Racing or Alcon setup.


Yeah, castrol is the best, but as you pointed out, its too costly(for me) to consider it as the fluid of choice.

Two piece rotors will probably be my next major brake upgrade. I still need to do a little research though.

Hallster

The other issue with SRF is it has an even greater affinity for water than most brake fluids. You really need to change it often to keep it performing well. It becomes very expensive.

Has anyone tried a brake fluid recirculator?

Hallster
10-25-2004, 12:30 PM
Has anyone tried a brake fluid recirculator?

No, I'd like to hear about it though.

Hallster

erikgj
10-25-2004, 01:27 PM
Has anyone tried a brake fluid recirculator?

No, I'd like to hear about it though.

Hallster

When I get home I'll post the info I have.

GokuSSJ4
10-25-2004, 01:43 PM
Hallster-
love the new signature :P

gt40
10-25-2004, 01:46 PM
Two piece rotors will probably be my next major brake upgrade. I still need to do a little research though.

Hallster

I have been testing some new full floating AP racing rotors with paget blue pads and they are staying on the car. Serious brake torque at 140: jumping on them at that speed just resulted in a full skid for 1 second or so and then the abs tried to rip my wheel out of my hands... :shock: Got to ease into them first and then stand on them. Can't believe that I could flat lock up at that speed...

At SOW and running motul , we got the pads to have a sustained fire going when we came back in from a full session but absolutely no fade- they just worked flawless. On a final note, the paget blue pads that came with the kit stop okay cold although you just need slightly more pressure on them.

On the plus side, almost no brake dust compared to stock or the ferodo 3000 I was using. Hot they took everything Otto and I threw at them.

Downsides: cost is going to be somewhere around 800 something I think with paget pads and they are a little noisy rolling around because they are a full floating race part.

Hallster
10-25-2004, 02:35 PM
Hallster-
love the new signature :P

I made that special just for you.... I thought you might like that! :P

drmosh
10-25-2004, 02:37 PM
Hallster-
love the new signature :P

I made that special just for you.... I thought you might like that! :P

I'm laughing my ass off :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

gt40
10-25-2004, 02:40 PM
be nice both of you :)

GokuSSJ4
10-25-2004, 03:31 PM
hahaha !! damn i need to learn photoshop :P
well i just got quote it from http://www.raceshopper.com/
and the DS ferodo 2500 are $169.00 front and $69.00 back which is a good price for pads .

Hallster
10-25-2004, 03:33 PM
Two piece rotors will probably be my next major brake upgrade. I still need to do a little research though.

Hallster

Downsides: cost is going to be somewhere around 800 something I think with paget pads and they are a little noisy rolling around because they are a full floating race part.

A little noisy?!?!?!? ...When I heard your car get rolled out of the garage, it sounded like your car was going to fall apart . I'd go bananas if I had those on my car... But maybe you guys tried some different hats with tighter clearences???

Hallster

Hallster
10-25-2004, 03:36 PM
be nice both of you :)

I think Goku got the joke and took it for what it was meant to be... just playing on his intrusive little signature that tells you what IP address you have and your domain...

Hallster

GokuSSJ4
10-25-2004, 03:36 PM
you also need to remember that he has the ATS triple plate clutch, that doesn't help either :?

erikgj
10-25-2004, 09:04 PM
Has anyone tried a brake fluid recirculator?

No, I'd like to hear about it though.

Hallster

When I get home I'll post the info I have.

Dan Press Industries LC/SB brake fluid recirculators are the most common. these were sold as stewart racing before.

http://dpiracingproducts.com/lcsbbrake.htm

Blak94GSX
10-26-2004, 01:33 AM
Project Mu sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-44 (Orange) sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-14 (Black) is decent but $$$
PF97 is an excellent all-around pad and rotor friendly track pad
Hawk Blue best shit for the track

gt40
10-26-2004, 02:50 AM
that was the clutch not the brakes :p my car likes noise so what can i say... racecars aren't quiet:)

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 09:08 AM
Project Mu sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-44 (Orange) sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-14 (Black) is decent but $$$
PF97 is an excellent all-around pad and rotor friendly track pad
Hawk Blue best shit for the track

i seen the PF97 in action and Bevos rotors didnt look that great :?

whats your feedback on the DS ferrodo 2500 and 3000 ??

Blak94GSX
10-26-2004, 09:11 AM
Grooving is normal as the rotor wears. It doesn't mean excessive wear, considering 1 track day is like 10k miles of street brake use.

I haven't used the Ferodo products so I can't comment on those.

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 09:14 AM
oh , well since Bevo has just about one track day or 2 the most. While my set up has near 4-5 track days, which im sure its time to replace mine or anytime soon. are the hawk blue mainly a track set up pad or can they be use for street/track (which is something im looking for)

Blak94GSX
10-26-2004, 09:16 AM
You CAN use anything on the street. The Hawk Blue is pretty noisy and has marginal feel when cold.

Pads are easy to change at the track. Get in the habit... :p

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 09:19 AM
hahaha! i dont even like changing my oil :P i dont trust myself to change pads

kmEVO818
10-26-2004, 09:20 AM
Project Mu sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-44 (Orange) sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-14 (Black) is decent but $$$
PF97 is an excellent all-around pad and rotor friendly track pad
Hawk Blue best shit for the track

i seen the PF97 in action and Bevos rotors didnt look that great :?

whats your feedback on the DS ferrodo 2500 and 3000 ??


I can vouch for the ferodo. I ran 3000 in the fronts and 2500 in the rear with the SS lines and motul. Goku you saw how my calipers looked, nice and brown! but I had firm pedal feel all day long even with hard braking coming down the straight and going into the bowl.

trannb
10-26-2004, 09:39 AM
are the hawk blue mainly a track set up pad or can they be use for street/track (which is something im looking for)

They stop your car on the street a little better than stock (when cold) and great when warm. They are louder by a large margin than the PF97s on the street.

Like Scot said, get in the habit of changing them at the track. I drove up to the track on the Hawk Blues (because I'd just bedded them in) but I changed them back to stock at the track when I pulled the RA-1s off. It only took an extra 5-10 minutes for both sides.

Absinthe
10-26-2004, 09:45 AM
Not to be a damper here but its not really the best idea for your brake system to be swapping between pads, the reason being is that then one pads is never properly bedded to the rotor and you will never get maximum performance out of either pad. It really would best be to buy the most agresive pad you can stomach for the street get new rotors and seat everything properly to the rotrs that way you will get the full performance potential out of your brake system. This combined with good ducting should be more than enough for most people at the track.

The other option for the track (if you are really in need of it) is a second set of rotors which you bed your track pads to and switch the whole setup out for the track.

trannb
10-26-2004, 09:50 AM
Point taken. My observation is that getting a good track pad and swapping it in the night before (and getting a decent bedding) would still be better than a truly properly bedded compromise street pad. Bedded or not, a system using a street pad will still fade when given a proper flogging at the track.

trannb
10-26-2004, 09:52 AM
Oh, and on a side note everyone, I didn't brownbo at the last event. The biggest difference between my brake setup and most of everyone else's is that I have my dust shields removed.

Absinthe
10-26-2004, 09:57 AM
Oh, and on a side note everyone, I didn't brownbo at the last event. The biggest difference between my brake setup and most of everyone else's is that I have my dust shields removed.

Free mods gotta love them.

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 10:11 AM
tell me about it, mine turn dark brown :?
i think those are my next to mods: dust shield off and street/track pad (hope i dont need new rotors)

Hallster
10-26-2004, 12:39 PM
that was the clutch not the brakes :p my car likes noise so what can i say... racecars aren't quiet:)

Okay. I heard your car being pushed out of the shop and heard the noise. I thought it was the brakes.

Hallster

Hallster
10-26-2004, 01:17 PM
Project Mu sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-44 (Orange) sucks ass, don't bother
Pagid RS-14 (Black) is decent but $$$
PF97 is an excellent all-around pad and rotor friendly track pad
Hawk Blue best shit for the track

I agree on the Project MUs. Seems to me Project MU's been hitt'n the crack pipe or living in Anime world with a claimed upper temp limit on its Titan Kai's of 800c or something.

With an upper temp range of 650c, the Pagid RS-14's weren't perfect at buttonwillow, so I don't think the Blues would be better having a lower upper tempertaure limit of 538c. Granted, I'm a madman on the track, so my requirements are prolly a little more stringent than most.

I'm not promoting Pagid or anything, but I bought the Pagid pads for ~220 a set. Isn't the price on the blues 250 something?

Hallster

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 01:20 PM
Hallster -
where did you purchase your Pagid ?
and which model are you running ??
what pad do you recommend since im getting ready to purchase some new pads.

Hallster
10-26-2004, 01:51 PM
Hallster -
where did you purchase your Pagid ?
and which model are you running ??
what pad do you recommend since im getting ready to purchase some new pads.

Call:
Aase Motorsports
Jeff Erickson
714.992.2283
Fullerton, CA

tell Jeff I sent ya...

RS14s are 202.70/set
Pagid Blues are 180 something

oops, almost forgot, im ruinning RS14s

trannb
10-26-2004, 02:59 PM
Isn't the price on the blues 250 something?

If you were asking for the price of the Hawk Blues, they were $279 for the front set from Porterfield (Custom Grind) and something like $129 for the rear set. If you PM Coolguy949 you can surely get a cheaper price.

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 04:16 PM
pagid RS14s are 202.70/set
front and back ????
if so im picking a complete set this month :mrgreen:

Hallster
10-26-2004, 06:15 PM
pagid RS14s are 202.70/set
front and back ????
if so im picking a complete set this month :mrgreen:

thats for the fronts.

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 06:18 PM
damn LOL how much for front and back ???

Hallster
10-26-2004, 07:18 PM
damn LOL how much for front and back ???

I don't know... I'm running fronts. Just call and ask. I imagine they'll be cheaper than the fronts.

Hallster

trannb
10-26-2004, 07:25 PM
I'm running only front pads also. You may want to try that out first and see how you like the balance.

GokuSSJ4
10-26-2004, 08:50 PM
true, maybe i can get away with just changing the fronts and later on the rear.

toku-one
10-27-2004, 03:03 PM
is there any info on the endless ss-s pads?