Does the US government condone torture?

[JanSolo]

Just curious if the US government condones torture of people it captures or not. I've read stuff that say the US does, but of course, you never quite know. Anyone have any idea? I know the US is going after Lynndie England for her role in acts against Iraqi prisoners which would suggest they are against it, but then there are rumors from being leaving our prisons in Cuba that state they were tortured by the US military.

And there is this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050924/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/secret_planes

[rammsteinmatt]

officially, we're against torture in accordance to the geneva convention.

but realistically, they deserve it...........if they are tortured well they deserve it, if they aren't then they have the liberal media to thank when the finish rotting in prison

[JanSolo]

if they aren't then they have the liberal media to thank when the finish rotting in prison


Oh, you must mean news outlets like Fox News?

[genrec]

officially, we're against torture in accordance to the geneva convention.

but realistically, they deserve it...........if they are tortured well they deserve it, if they aren't then they have the liberal media to thank when the finish rotting in prison


yes that *^^^

You know damn well those sons-of-a-bitches would do the same us. Turn around is fairplay.
I personally would sow their assholes shut...and keep feeding them, and feeding them, and feeding them..
How about hammering slivers of bamboo under their finger nails......hmmm, wonder wher i go that idea?

[rammsteinmatt]

if they aren't then they have the liberal media to thank when the finish rotting in prison


Oh, you must mean news outlets like Fox News?


that was stupid...............

i could see you saying that fox news is stupid, not good reporters, tell what they want, etc... but liberal? you got it all muddled up

[JanSolo]

if they aren't then they have the liberal media to thank when the finish rotting in prison


Oh, you must mean news outlets like Fox News?


that was stupid...............

i could see you saying that fox news is stupid, not good reporters, tell what they want, etc... but liberal? you got it all muddled up


That is because you probably didn't sense my sarcasm. ;)

[drmosh]

bring back shotguns for trench warfare!!

oh wait... wrong topic...

[rammsteinmatt]

i rather like that.

you can use sarcasm, say whatever you want, and so forth.
but when we say something. it must be a proper sentance, spelled correctly, proper punctuation, it cannot be too extreme of a statement or it will immediatly be disregarded, and we must cite our sources. if we cannot do any of the previously mentioned things or millions of other "standards" then we do not, and furthermore cannot, have a valid point


i rather like these double standards. basically if you can't win straight out, make rules so the others cannot and by default you must win O0

[nurb2]

I worked 4 years for the U.S. government and my only job was lying to the public ... suffice to say many things the government is against publicly it either condones or looks the other way privately. That's just the way it is.

-nurb2-

[JanSolo]

i rather like that.

you can use sarcasm, say whatever you want, and so forth.
but when we say something. it must be a proper sentance, spelled correctly, proper punctuation, it cannot be too extreme of a statement or it will immediatly be disregarded, and we must cite our sources. if we cannot do any of the previously mentioned things or millions of other "standards" then we do not, and furthermore cannot, have a valid point

I don't recall chastising anyone for spelling, punctuation and the like. What I do ask for, admittedly, is sources of information. If people don't site their sources of information, then they could simply fabricate anything they want and claim it as truth, hence why I post links.

It's an attempt to provide facts and then come to a logical conclusion, rather than simply stating an opinion based upon dubious/questionable data. Otherwise, things get labeled as opinions, which are obviously perfectly acceptable to have, but without data to back it up it isn't necessarily relevant to finding an "answer", so to speak.

I agree - I would be a complete idiot if I regarded Fox News as a liberal news source, which is why I thought my sarcasm would be obvious for all to see. Next time, I'll put a winky so my sarcasm is more easily distinguishable.

[EVOMANIAC]

Those prisoners in Cuba get treated better than our own military members. We are providing those worthless scumbags with corrective surgery and false limbs from injuries received before the war even started.
As for the torture part, if torturing and killing a thousand of them will save one American soldier's life.... I say hire more people and get busy with the pain.

[rammsteinmatt]

I agree - I would be a complete idiot if I regarded Fox News as a liberal news source, which is why I thought my sarcasm would be obvious for all to see. Next time, I'll put a winky so my sarcasm is more easily distinguishable.


cool

[turbolarry]

Does the US government condone torture?
Of course not... but what two CIA agents and some poor slob do behind closed doors is their own business. We'll never know half of what's really going on in some branches of government, but that's the way the majority of people want it.


Sometimes I think our founding fathers would be so let down and embarassed of what America has become. :-(

[909Evo]

Officially no....

We had a colonel court marshalled in the Army because he discharged his firearm to scare a prisoner. He shot it as like a warning shot asking the guy where the rest of his "squad" was. He ended up getting the information, and prevented an attack on American soldiers saving an unknown amount of lives....

But since he did that, he got court marshalled. BS if you ask me, then again, I was in the military. I look at things differently.

[rammsteinmatt]

then again, I was in the military. I look at things differently.


what? the right way.........

[WavMixer]

All is fair in love and war. If they can strap a bomb to themselves and blow up a group of innocent people, then we can stuff bamboo under their finger nails to find out who else is planning on straping on a bomb.

[e.]

I personally would sow their assholes shut...and keep feeding them, and feeding them, and feeding them..



The Wu-Tang clan strikes again.

[Absinthe]

Just curious if the US government condones torture of people it captures or not.* I've read stuff that say the US does, but of course, you never quite know.* Anyone have any idea?* I know the US is going after Lynndie England for her role in acts against Iraqi prisoners which would suggest they are against it, but then there are rumors from being leaving our prisons in Cuba that state they were tortured by the US military.

And there is this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050924/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/secret_planes


Ever listen to the president speak? I would imagine if they do that to us being a prisoner isn't fun.

[Richard EVO]

The United States military does practice torture and humiliation. We learned that from Abu Grabe or however you spell that.

When I was growing up, the U.S.A. was an upstanding power that did things the right way, no matter how down and dirty others got. We were proud and strong, but fair.

Now we have shrunk to the lowest level. War is just terrorism with a bigger budget.

[genrec]

I personally would sow their assholes shut...and keep feeding them, and feeding them, and feeding them..



The Wu-Tang clan strikes again.


O0 you win!

[ultraflip]

I personally would sow their assholes shut...and keep feeding them, and feeding them, and feeding them..



The Wu-Tang clan strikes again.


O0 you win!


i knew i heard that from somewhere.. haha

[JanSolo]

The United States military does practice torture and humiliation. We learned that from Abu Grabe or however you spell that.

When I was growing up, the U.S.A. was an upstanding power that did things the right way, no matter how down and dirty others got. We were proud and strong, but fair.

Now we have shrunk to the lowest level. War is just terrorism with a bigger budget.


Or maybe we weren't just as well informed then as we are now.

[genrec]

The United States military does practice torture and humiliation. We learned that from Abu Grabe or however you spell that.

When I was growing up, the U.S.A. was an upstanding power that did things the right way, no matter how down and dirty others got. We were proud and strong, but fair.

Now we have shrunk to the lowest level. War is just terrorism with a bigger budget.


Or maybe we weren't just as well informed then as we are now.



I'll buy that for a dollar. No offense to any of you, because your all knowledgable in your own way. BUT nobody here has a clue whats REALLY going. You think what you watch on TV or even read in articles, has half truths...yah right. They let you read and look at what they want you to. I bet behind the scenes it's very SCARY place, and nobody here could even comprehend it. YOU are not living it, everything spouted off here is speculation and assumption.

My .02...but i luv ya all!

[JanSolo]

I'll buy that for a dollar. No offense to any of you, because your all knowledgable in your own way. BUT nobody here has a clue whats REALLY going. You think what you watch on TV or even read in articles, has half truths...yah right. They let you read and look at what they want you to. I bet behind the scenes it's very SCARY place, and nobody here could even comprehend it. YOU are not living it, everything spouted off here is speculation and assumption.

My .02...but i luv ya all!


All we can do is piece together from the information we have at hand and with the advent of the internet, we have a lot of sources of information beyond what our government and media wants to tell us. But, you're right - there is probably a ton of stuff going on behind the scenes that very few people know about, except for the people up top.

[genrec]

I'll buy that for a dollar. No offense to any of you, because your all knowledgable in your own way. BUT nobody here has a clue whats REALLY going. You think what you watch on TV or even read in articles, has half truths...yah right. They let you read and look at what they want you to. I bet behind the scenes it's very SCARY place, and nobody here could even comprehend it. YOU are not living it, everything spouted off here is speculation and assumption.

My .02...but i luv ya all!


All we can do is piece together from the information we have at hand and with the advent of the internet, we have a lot of sources of information beyond what our government and media wants to tell us. But, you're right - there is probably a ton of stuff going on behind the scenes that very few people know about, except for the people up top.



Exactly...up top and way down belowww... and probably Chris from SD.. :grin: sorry buddy..had to throw it in!

[Jon H]

Jack Bauer condones torture. ;)

[freds4]

"No offense to any of you, because your all knowledgable in your own way. BUT nobody here has a clue whats REALLY going. You think what you watch on TV or even read in articles, has half truths...yah right. They let you read and look at what they want you to. I bet behind the scenes it's very SCARY place, and nobody here could even comprehend it. YOU are not living it, everything spouted off here is speculation and assumption."

Wow, THAT is the most intelligent thing I have read in this forum in a LONG time. O0
Torturing prisoners is the stupidest thing a Soldier/Marine can do. It is counter-productive in the long run and is absolutely not allowed in the military. Many prisoners are released back into the community and will talk about how they were treated and that can affect how our people are treated when/if they are captured.
The Abu Graib incident involved a bunch of Army reservist screw-ups and in no way reflected U.S. policy. To believe otherwise is ludicrous.
Having said all that, I am certain that things have happened that should not have, and this will continue, simply because we do not live in a perfect world. However, I can assure you that in today's military to be caught doing something like this will result in an immediate Court Martial.

[drwn kix]

"No offense to any of you, because your all knowledgable in your own way. BUT nobody here has a clue whats REALLY going. You think what you watch on TV or even read in articles, has half truths...yah right. They let you read and look at what they want you to. I bet behind the scenes it's very SCARY place, and nobody here could even comprehend it. YOU are not living it, everything spouted off here is speculation and assumption."

* * * * * Wow, THAT is the most intelligent thing I have read in this forum in a LONG time.* O0
Torturing prisoners is the stupidest thing a Soldier/Marine can do. It is counter-productive in the long run and is absolutely not allowed in the military.* Many prisoners are released back into the community and will talk about how they were treated and that can affect how our people are treated when/if they are captured.
* * The Abu Graib incident involved a bunch of Army reservist screw-ups and in no way reflected U.S. policy. To believe otherwise is ludicrous.
* * * *Having said all that, I am certain that things have happened that should not have, and this will continue, simply because we do not live in a perfect world. However, I can assure you that in today's military to be caught doing something like this will result in an immediate Court Martial.


Sorry Fred but you must be dead wrong. Torture and murder have been happening all over Afganistan and Iraq, not to mention Guantanamo and the "secret" prisons in eastern Europe.
The trail is unmistakable from the memo written by the White House Council through Cheney (who is fighting rules against torture) to Rumsfeld, the incompetent, and out into the field. You are spouting the White House line but it is simply not true.

[BOVBILLY]

ALL I KNOW IS,

JAN LIKED IT WHEN I TORTURED, TIED AND WHIPPED HIM!

[Macky]

ALL I KNOW IS,

JAN LIKED IT WHEN I TORTURED, TIED AND WHIPPED HIM!


man, you and your fetishes Billy.


you are such a man whore. now i know how you get your sponsorships :grin:

[Chris in SD]

Jan,

Given what you and I discussed before I left (at the HKS meet), you should know where I get my info from. I had a briefing yesterday that covered a lot of what you guys are discussing here. Let me put it unequivocally: there is no torture going on at "secret" sites, known sites, or anywhere else. The military shenanigans at Abu Ghraib aside, it is not something we condone.

On that note, I was shocked to hear how well these prisoners are treated in the "torture chambers". I can't go into details because I like my job, but let's just say all of the newspapers and media outlets have it dead wrong.

Finally, I agree with Fred - torture does not provide truthful answers. It is only effective on a tiny percentage of people. The rest either tighten their resolve not to talk, start spewing nonsense to get it to stop, or go into a state of shock and become completely worthless.

Our government is not the evil empire many would portray it to be - it is honestly looking out for you. That is why I moved to Virginia from sunny San Diego. This work is too important...

Cheers,

Chris

[nothere]

I used to be very liberal, as an example, I figured taking a life was wrong, that there was no case in which it was accepable to kill anyone for anything. Then a guy from the once well known hippy commune in Oregon asked me: what would I do if someone came in my house and was trying to kill my mother or rape my sister, what would I do.
That little bit of reality changed my thinking pretty quickly.

But what it comes down to, is each individual living the best life they can, following the ethics we as a society hold. Then in the moment when we are in the firing chamber we can only hope to make the right decision. In the dramatic situations where life and death of people we know are at stake, faced with an enemy we detest, what we do may not sound right, it might be the right thing nevertheless.
In that case, do you say the US goverment is doing something, or do you say you or I are doing something? Because that in effect is who is doing whatever is being done.

[Terry S]

Jan,

Given what you and I discussed before I left (at the HKS meet), you should know where I get my info from.* I had a briefing yesterday that covered a lot of what you guys are discussing here.* Let me put it unequivocally:* there is no torture going on at "secret" sites, known sites, or anywhere else.* The military shenanigans at Abu Ghraib aside, it is not something we condone.

On that note, I was shocked to hear how well these prisoners are treated in the "torture chambers".* I can't go into details because I like my job, but let's just say all of the newspapers and media outlets have it dead wrong.

Finally, I agree with Fred - torture does not provide truthful answers.* It is only effective on a tiny percentage of people.* The rest either tighten their resolve not to talk, start spewing nonsense to get it to stop, or go into a state of shock and become completely worthless.

Our government is not the evil empire many would portray it to be - it is honestly looking out for you.* That is why I moved to Virginia from sunny San Diego.* This work is too important...

Cheers,

Chris


O0 Thats the sound of truth right there. It's to bad the off-the-rocker conspiracy theorists cant hear you chris

Terry S

[EvoPwr]

torture meh, who cares. if they weren't doing anything wrong they wouldn't be getting tortured O0

[WavMixer]

Does the US government condone torture?

Hell yes they do!! They damn near kill me every April 15th.

[Terry S]

Does the US government condone torture?*

Hell yes they do!! They damn near kill me every April 15th.


You think we're bad? Try moving to Denmark where you get to pay 80% taxes and your reported income is publicly posted every year. :2funny:

Terry S

[freds4]

Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha! Oh, MY MISTAKE! I am only doing this every day of my life but I'm sure it is ME who is wrong. Since I see that you know how to read, how about reading my profile. (Yes, I wasn't afraid to fill it out) I have been a Marine for over 21 years; how old are you? I am on my 4th tour in Iraq and I saw my last detainee (that's what we call them in the business) early this morning. YOU presume to tell ME the way things really are?
You are just another brainless media drone. Have a nice day.



Sorry Fred but you must be dead wrong.* Torture and murder have been happening all over Afganistan and Iraq, not to mention Guantanamo and the "secret" prisons in eastern Europe.*
The trail is unmistakable from the memo written by the White House Council through Cheney (who is fighting rules against torture) to Rumsfeld, the incompetent, and out into the field.* You are spouting the White House line but it is simply not true.

[Bills Evo]

Here's my $0.02. My own experience in Viet Nam, not heresay or rumor, is that when you're in the shit you do what you have to do. Until you are actually there and experiencing it you don't know shit! Having someone who's been sitting on their ass in the comfort of a nice house pass judgement on me or anyone else who've been up to their neck in the blood, guts and shredded bodies of other humans is pure bullshit! Having been covered in my buddies brains and blood gives me a different perspective.
In my highly emotional opinion, lets be careful when passing judgement. Until we've walked the same road that someone else has we don't know what's there. Sorry but 1966 was a bad year and still keeps me up at night. OK, now that I've said my piece everyone can blast me and call me names. Bill

[arrowevo]

To all the vets: Has anyone gone to a S.E.R.E. school? I know the Army has one (ouch) and the AirForce. Go to that school and tell me we dont torture.

pk

yes, yes, and yes.

[arrowevo]

Jan,

Finally, I agree with Fred - torture does not provide truthful answers.* It is only effective on a tiny percentage of people.* The rest either tighten their resolve not to talk, start spewing nonsense to get it to stop, or go into a state of shock and become completely worthless.



Good info, but how do you/we know unless we do it? Are saying that we are guessing it only is effective on a small number of people? Or if you say we know this, where did that control set come from? Not that I disagree, just hoping to cause you to think a little deeper.

For the record, I love the United States of America!

pk

[Chris in SD]

Jan,

Finally, I agree with Fred - torture does not provide truthful answers.* It is only effective on a tiny percentage of people.* The rest either tighten their resolve not to talk, start spewing nonsense to get it to stop, or go into a state of shock and become completely worthless.



Good info, but how do you/we know unless we do it?* Are saying that we are guessing it only is effective on a small number of people? Or if you say we know this, where did that control set come from?* Not that I disagree, just hoping to cause you to think a little deeper.

For the record, I love the United States of America!

pk


Fred, me and several others here are/were Marines, so we know all about your version of "torture". SERE school is not the slightest bit comparable to real torture.

Think about your logic for one second: So you/me/we need to actually do something to know about it? By that logic, why don't you jump from a tall building to see if you'll live. Get my point? Plenty of dictators/banana republics/etc. have tortured for years. Hell, many of our allies (Israel, Jordan, Egypt) still do. Don't you think we ever are present for those sessions? By watching and reading the debriefs, it's pretty easy to tell what "intel" is fabricated to stop the pain and what is real. Ever heard of the expression, "It's easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar"? That holds true here. When I say that torture is only effective on a small percentage of people, I am referring to the weak-willed that will spill the beans at even the thought of pain or violence against them. Most of the bad guys we're up against today are much more hardcore and torture would actually strengthen their resolve.

Finally - to all of you who think we're so mean to these pieces of shit, I encourage you to go to Ogrish.com or some of the other sites (www.thenausea.org) and check out the videos you don't see on the news. Old civilian Americans beheaded, Americans jumping out of the WTC while it was still standing, car bombs going off in a crowded market... Then come tell about how we should treat them.

[Terry S]

Ongrish.com is hardcore... I can still clearly remember the beheading video's.

Terry S

[arrowevo]

Jan,

Finally, I agree with Fred - torture does not provide truthful answers.* It is only effective on a tiny percentage of people.* The rest either tighten their resolve not to talk, start spewing nonsense to get it to stop, or go into a state of shock and become completely worthless.



Good info, but how do you/we know unless we do it?* Are saying that we are guessing it only is effective on a small number of people? Or if you say we know this, where did that control set come from?* Not that I disagree, just hoping to cause you to think a little deeper.

For the record, I love the United States of America!

pk


Fred, me and several others here are/were Marines, so we know all about your version of "torture".* SERE school is not the slightest bit comparable to real torture.*

Think about your logic for one second:* So you/me/we need to actually do something to know about it?* By that logic, why don't you jump from a tall building to see if you'll live.* Get my point?* Plenty of dictators/banana republics/etc. have tortured for years.* Hell, many of our allies (Israel, Jordan, Egypt) still do.* Don't you think we ever are present for those sessions?* By watching and reading the debriefs, it's pretty easy to tell what "intel" is fabricated to stop the pain and what is real.* Ever heard of the expression, "It's easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar"?* That holds true here.* When I say that torture is only effective on a small percentage of people, I am referring to the weak-willed that will spill the beans at even the thought of pain or violence against them.* Most of the bad guys we're up against today are much more hardcore and torture would actually strengthen their resolve.

Finally - to all of you who think we're so mean to these pieces of shit, I encourage you to go to Ogrish.com or some of the other sites (www.thenausea.org) and check out the videos you don't see on the news.* Old civilian Americans beheaded, Americans jumping out of the WTC while it was still standing, car bombs going off in a crowded market...* Then come tell about how we should treat them.


I completely understand that the torture that our enemies, and some of our allies do is far far worse than what occurs in SERE. But, what is commonly practiced in SERE is worse than what has been labeled as torture in the media as of late. Beatings, being urinated on, forced to march with no boots, long term food/sleep deprivation. I am not offering a judgement on if it is right or wrong, but if what I describe equates to torture, than I can only think that we do it. Until recently, there has been no official methods for interrugation in a field manual for soldiers. So, if the only training they receive is from say, SERE experience, what do you think they will do? I am not bashing anyone, especially not our soldiers/marines, etc. Just not pretending that we promote being nice (at least they didnt) to people we capture.

Again, I am not passing judgement on the act here, just stating my experience when I was rather green. I would like to think that we only used honey, but I do smell a little vinegar in the air. My job didnt have anything to do with taking care of the enemy, from that perspective it was rather easy. No judgement calls to make...rules of engagement were my guidelines and didnt have to think much about the GC.

I feel for and I am proud of all the people serving our country. It must be frustrating to see people putting you down for doing your job. Just do it! There are a lot of people behind you. But I still think we are guilty at least in complicity. And no, I do have to jump off a building to see if I will die, someone else was already thrown off of it and they died so I already know.

pk

[Terry S]

Um arrow, you do know that SERE school is a place for US military members to learn how to cope with torture, not perform it right?

You basically get captured and treated like a prisoner as the enemy would treat you, not us.

Terry S

[Chris in SD]

Until recently, there has been no official methods for interrugation in a field manual for soldiers.*

I don't know where you're getting your "info" from, but that's wrong. When I went to the selection board to become an interrogator in 1997, I had a field interrogation manual, a manual about different interrogation approaches, etc. to study. Any military interrogator has had formal training in interrogation techniques, legal issues, the law of war, the Geneva Conventions, etc. The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines that are interrogating these idiots around the world all have had this training and are governed by it.

This whole uproar about whether we torture prisoners or not comes from the media exploitation of the words of some pissed-off terrorist who got slapped around a little bit. SERE is not torture. Smacking a prisoner (which is explicitly prohibited in the manual) is not torture. Torture is the systematic abuse of someone physically and/or mentally to achieve the result of extracting information (in this context). Of course, others torture for sadistic pleasure. We, as a nation, are not torturing anyone. Like I read in a column of a newspaper, and you alluded to here, going to boot camp or infantry school or SERE as a Marine or SEAL or Ranger is much worse treatment than what our enemy combatants receive.

No BS involved...

[gofaster87]

No shit Chris, Boot camp wasnt a garden of roses. I still can remember the days. The Marine Corp is not a gathering for a bunch of pansy bitches to conversate about the latest starbucks coffee. You are there to train and only train hard. When it comes down to your life you dont want to be left behind.

[arrowevo]

Until recently, there has been no official methods for interrugation in a field manual for soldiers.*

I don't know where you're getting your "info" from, but that's wrong.* When I went to the selection board to become an interrogator in 1997, I had a field interrogation manual, a manual about different interrogation approaches, etc. to study.* Any military interrogator has had formal training in interrogation techniques, legal issues, the law of war, the Geneva Conventions, etc.* The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines that are interrogating these idiots around the world all have had this training and are governed by it.*

This whole uproar about whether we torture prisoners or not comes from the media exploitation of the words of some pissed-off terrorist who got slapped around a little bit.* SERE is not torture.* Smacking a prisoner (which is explicitly prohibited in the manual) is not torture.* Torture is the systematic abuse of someone physically and/or mentally to achieve the result of extracting information (in this context).* Of course, others torture for sadistic pleasure.* We, as a nation, are not torturing anyone.* Like I read in a column of a newspaper, and you alluded to here, going to boot camp or infantry school or SERE as a Marine or SEAL or Ranger is much worse treatment than what our enemy combatants receive.

No BS involved...


about the manual for torture, I am a victim of media hype here i guess. but the perspective i meant to come from (but i didnt express) was that unless you are a specialist, you dont have the manual. and i may be wrong, but most personnel in charge of the day to days for the detainees are not specialist, or are they? I may be wrong.

as far as the SERE example goes, lets not predicate all things on this...it was an example to show what soldiers who arent trained specifically in detainee handling could end up with. i think i made that clear when i made the statement about them not having other training so, lets not focus. I am completely aware of what SERE is about, and being on the receiving end of some badness and had I been in charge of detainees with no specific training in handling them, well i know how i probably would have treated them at the time, as the example i was given had specifics to it. and to again agree with an earlier statement, you are correct as it helped my resolve in the whole ordeal.

pk

[Chris in SD]

Let me be 100% clear here: EVERY single military interrogator has been trained in what I wrote about. EVERY one of them. I can't speak for the civilian interrogators (contractors) they've hired or the OGA interrogators (non-military).

Those morons at Abu Ghraib that "abused" those guys did one of two things: 1) they are sadistic bastards, or 2) they followed orders to soften those guys up. No other answer will work for me. To be perfectly honest, I think it was most likely #2. Keep in mind that in Arab culture, the women is very low on the totem pole, so for a women to humiliate you or mock your genitals is a tremendous insult and could open them up for interrogation more easily.

I cannot repeat this enough times (and it's obvious you've haven't seen it yet): Watch those videos I told you about and then tell me ANYTHING about torturing prisoners. Until we start pulling fingernails, smashing testicles with pliers, cutting off body parts, etc., we haven't done a thing wrong.

If I am ever captured by the bad guys over there (or anywhere else these fundy Islamic bastards live), I will fight until I am dead instead of staying alive to be beheaded later.

[Blaze]

.... I can't speak for the civilian interrogators (contractors) they've hired or the OGA interrogators (non-military).


Well that's a good point.

Perhaps the question should not be done the US Government condone torture, but is it RESPONSIBLE for alleged acts of it?

Obviously the government is not going to state that the support unpopular issues EVER. And would they deny it if it happened? Sure. Innocent until proven otherwise, that's only fair.

But, to the best of my knowledge, the Federal government is not immediately responsible for local disasters. Yet who gets blamed when things went ill in New Orlean?

And where I'm going with that is this: The US govt. is responsible for the actions of its associates. Just like a business is for it's employees, just like parents are for their kids. It doesn't really matter if the the joe anyone does the deed by accident, or the president flips a switch remotely and on purpose....

:buck2:

[Chris in SD]

This is a good point about accountability and goes a long way toward explaining why it's so difficult as a contractor or other civilian to get military-type work (outside of protective service details aka Blackwater et al in Iraq/Afghanistan). I agree that the government IS responsible for whomever they hire out to do the work. A good vetting process combined with actual oversight is the only way to ensure standards are being met - and this can apply to any type of contract work.

That said, I believe the contracting officers and the contract companies themselves should be held liable, both criminally and financially for misdeeds by their people. To blame Bush or the DoD is a little myopic.

[Terry S]

I totally agree with gofaster that Marine bootcamp was definitely not some hippy drum circle. Hell, at one point during our training time on Geneva Convention and POW stuff, before the lecture they came right out and stated, "As you read these, please note that you as a recruit have less freedoms than a POW under the Geneva Convention rules. This is not illegal because you elected to take part here." If I was permitted to laugh at the time, I think I could have laughed for the whole lecture since it was 100% true.

Terry S