Does rev-matching (heel-toe) burn your clutch?

[gh0stch1ld]

Hey guys. Enlighten me on this. When you come to a turn, naturally you'd brake and shift gears into 2nd or w/e. Friend suggest i should start rev-matching. I asked him doesn't that burn your clutch a lil bit? He says if its done right, then it won't burn. Here are the steps to rev-match.
Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.


1. Push in the clutch with your left foot.


2. This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. The pedal design on some cars makes this easier to do than on others. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.


3. Move the shifter to third gear.


4. Release the clutch with your left foot.

And all of these are done at the same time. What do you guys think?

[llxzxll]

i think your friend is telling you to heel-toe.

i found this thread useful: http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=870.15

[gh0stch1ld]

yea but the question is, does it burn the clutch?

[GenerAznX]

no it does not burn your clutch, infact its better for your clutch then downshifting and just letting the clutch out slowly. rev matching, or heel toe is much easier on your clutch and drive train.

[DTunedEvoX]

If your heel and toe(ing) before and through a corner you will burn some of your clutch .... What your saving is the syncros ... 8) Easier engagement ...

[EvoPwr]

If your heel and toe(ing) before and through a corner you will burn some of your clutch .... What your saving is the syncros ... 8) Easier engagement ...


Yea now a way to not damage anything is to use your brakes...slow down...and then down shift. O0 or down shift early so all you have to do is apply pressure to the brakes.

[DTunedEvoX]

If your heel and toe(ing) before and through a corner you will burn some of your clutch .... What your saving is the syncros ... 8) Easier engagement ...


Yea now a way to not damage anything is to use your brakes...slow down...and then down shift. O0* or down shift early so all you have to do is apply pressure to the brakes.


I agree - its cheaper to change your pads on your brakes than to change out your clutch LOL

[GenerAznX]

heel toe is not intended to slow the car down via compression breaking, the purpose for heel toe is to aid the sycros in getting the gearbox speed to match engine speed as not to unsettle the balance of the car when down shifting under hard braking into a corner.

[EvoPwr]

heel toe is not intended to slow the car down via compression breaking, the purpose for heel toe is to aid the sycros in getting the gearbox speed to match engine speed as not to unsettle the balance of the car when down shifting under hard braking into a corner.


unsettle the balance? wtf?

[GenerAznX]

here is a good article take from,

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html

"Downshifting
The first thing to understand is the purpose of the downshift. It is not to slow the car, that is the job of the brakes. The purpose of downshifting is to have the car in the correct gear to accelerate through and out of the corner.

Here is the process:

As you enter the braking zone, apply the brakes, but do not immediately downshift. The downshift should be done after the RPM’s have dropped, but must be complete before you begin the turn-in. Downshifting too early can over-rev the motor, waiting too long means you will be rolling the car through the corner entry, giving up the ability to use the throttle to balance the car.

Heel toe Downshifting
Why is “Heel toe” important? Remember, as you approach the traction limit of your tires, anything that takes traction can cause the car to slide. Have you ever downshifted and released the clutch too quickly and felt the car jump as the engine RPM’s were forced up to match the cars speed? Kind of like tapping the brakes. Think of this, if you are driving at 70 mph in 4th gear, at 4000 rpm’s and shift down to 3rd, your engine rpm’s will go up, to say 5200 rpm’s. You can accomplish this by easing out the clutch, until the engine is forced up in rpm’s by the car. This works, but it is slow, hard on the clutch and transmission synchros, and uses up some of your traction to force the RPM’s up. The alternative is to match the engine speed to the transmission speed (in the lower gear). This can be done by pushing in the clutch, blipping the throttle, selecting the lower gear and releasing the clutch. The problem is, downshifting is done at the same time we are braking. Guess what, we have two feet and three pedals to operate simultaneously! The Heel Toe technique solves this problem.

“Heel toe” is a misnomer. It can be done in many ways, depending on the pedals in the car, and the anatomy of the driver. Although it can be, it is not usually done with the heel and toe. The process is commonly done by placing the ball of the foot on the right side of the brake pedal, and while holding consistent brake pressure, the side of the foot rolls onto the throttle, “blipping” the throttle. Depending on your anatomy, and the pedals, it can be done any way that allows the brakes to be used while the throttle is blipped.

Heel Toe cannot be done smoothly unless two things are done:

1) The pedals must be matched. Normally this is done by adjusting until the brake and throttle are even in height, when the brakes are pressed on. The pedals must also be properly spaced. In my car it required adjusting and bending the gas pedal until I got the match I needed. In many cars, the pedals have some range of adjustment, making the process easier. One thing to remember, as you adjust the gas pedal, make sure that there is a mechanical stop for the pedal. If you rely on the stops in the carburetor or injection system to stop the motion, you will probably bend or break something as you try to squeeze a couple more horsepower out of the pedal. Also, make sure the linkage allows the butterflies in the carburetor to be fully open when the pedal hits your mechanical stop.

2) The technique must be practiced. Do not come to the track, with the intention of learning to Heel Toe. Learn the technique on the street, and practice it until it is second nature, before trying it at the track. If your street car is different from your track car, and your street car has a manual transmission, set its pedals for Heel Toe, and learn the technique. Try to get the pedal arrangement similar for both cars. If you must learn the technique in your track car, make it low on your priority list. When driving the line is second nature, you are comfortable in traffic, you’ve got all of the corner stations figured out, start working on it.

Heel Toe is not a required skill at your first event or two, as a matter of fact, you don’t ever have to learn it. It is a tool that will make you a smoother driver (ie. faster!), and you will be easier on your equipment. It’s a tool to add to your arsenal of skills as your high performance driving becomes more polished."

[PiNG]

heel toe is not intended to slow the car down via compression breaking, the purpose for heel toe is to aid the sycros in getting the gearbox speed to match engine speed as not to unsettle the balance of the car when down shifting under hard braking into a corner.


unsettle the balance? wtf?


i think that means shifting of weight by braking.

[EvoPwr]

heel toe is not intended to slow the car down via compression breaking, the purpose for heel toe is to aid the sycros in getting the gearbox speed to match engine speed as not to unsettle the balance of the car when down shifting under hard braking into a corner.


unsettle the balance? wtf?


i think that means shifting of weight by braking.


but you are braking either way though arent you?

[PiNG]

:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.

[EvoPwr]

:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.
:2funny: i dont even remember the point to this thread anymore, i will say this though

Heel-toeing makes you look really cool when you use it on the streets and helps a bit when racing on a track. But using it to help save your brakes, tranny, syncros, etc this is does not do. The best way to save everything is to slow down in the gear you are in and when at low RPMs just shift into neutral and continue braking.

[gh0stch1ld]

thanks guys. got my questions answered. i've been practicing heel-toe alot but i was just paranoid about my clutch since it goes out so easily. I installed the RMR clutch right after the stock one burned out.

[GenerAznX]

Heel toe IS eas



:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.
:2funny: i dont even remember the point to this thread anymore, i will say this though

Heel-toeing makes you look really cool when you use it on the streets and helps a bit when racing on a track. But using it to help save your brakes, tranny, syncros, etc this is does not do. The best way to save everything is to slow down in the gear you are in and when at low RPMs just shift into neutral and continue braking.


It helps alot when racing on a track, and it is easier on the tranny and clutch. The best way to preserve your clutch when you down shift is to heel toe.

[EvoPwr]

Heel toe IS eas



:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.
:2funny: i dont even remember the point to this thread anymore, i will say this though

Heel-toeing makes you look really cool when you use it on the streets and helps a bit when racing on a track. But using it to help save your brakes, tranny, syncros, etc this is does not do. The best way to save everything is to slow down in the gear you are in and when at low RPMs just shift into neutral and continue braking.


It helps alot when racing on a track, and it is easier on the tranny and clutch. The best way to preserve your clutch when you down shift is to heel toe.


when you down shift you don't need to brake...the best way to preserve your clutch is to rev match.

[gh0stch1ld]

Heel toe IS eas



:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.
:2funny: i dont even remember the point to this thread anymore, i will say this though

Heel-toeing makes you look really cool when you use it on the streets and helps a bit when racing on a track. But using it to help save your brakes, tranny, syncros, etc this is does not do. The best way to save everything is to slow down in the gear you are in and when at low RPMs just shift into neutral and continue braking.


It helps alot when racing on a track, and it is easier on the tranny and clutch.* The best way to preserve your clutch when you down shift is to heel toe.


when you down shift you don't need to brake...the best way to preserve your clutch is to rev match.


so if i don't need to brake, i push in the clutch, dip the accelerator to go 1000k up, shift down, then let go the clutch will not burn the clutch even a lil bit?

[DTunedEvoX]

It burns your clutch it dosnt save it =P Only thing it saves is STRAIN on your synchros with the end result of using some of your clutch .. Even though you wont smell it dosnt mean its not getting used more ...

[GenerAznX]

It burns your clutch it dosnt save it =P Only thing it saves is STRAIN on your synchros with the end result of using some of your clutch .. Even though you wont smell it dosnt mean its not getting used more ...


That is not correct. Think of it this way.

The motor is connected to the flywheel. The clutch is connected to the transmission.

If you are in gear at 4000 rpm, everything is spinning at 3000 rpm. (clutch and flywheel)

when you goto down shift, if you do not heel toe/rev match, the rpm of the motor will fall lets say to 2000rpm you release the clutch and now the 2000rpm of the motor needs to speed up to the 4000rpm of the clutch, thus creating wear.

On the other hand if you do heel toe/rev match, and your brough the rpm of the motor up to 4000rpm and released the clutch, the flywheel and clutch would be spinning at the same speed thus no wear is produced.

Wear on the clutch is caused by the friction created by the difference in RPM's of the flywheel and clutch. The greater the difference in rpm between the 2 surfaces the greater the wear.

If you could rev match perfectly everytime you shifted there would be virtually no wear on the clutch.

[GenerAznX]

Heel toe IS eas



:2funny: Good point there! forgot about your toe using the brakes during heel toing :uglystupid2: hmmm... no idea than.
:2funny: i dont even remember the point to this thread anymore, i will say this though

Heel-toeing makes you look really cool when you use it on the streets and helps a bit when racing on a track. But using it to help save your brakes, tranny, syncros, etc this is does not do. The best way to save everything is to slow down in the gear you are in and when at low RPMs just shift into neutral and continue braking.


It helps alot when racing on a track, and it is easier on the tranny and clutch. The best way to preserve your clutch when you down shift is to heel toe.


when you down shift you don't need to brake...the best way to preserve your clutch is to rev match.


so if i don't need to brake, i push in the clutch, dip the accelerator to go 1000k up, shift down, then let go the clutch will not burn the clutch even a lil bit?


partially correct, the whole idea of this is to match the engine rpm to the rpm of the gear that you will be going into. You need to "blip" the throttle just enough to match the rpm of the gear you will be going into. Keeping in mind that everything take a bit of time and rpms rise and fall fairly quickly when you apply and release the throttle. You want the rpms to match when you release the clutch.

[ebevo]

does it matter when you blip the gas?

i push in the clutch, move the lever into lower gear, then blip the throttle, then release the clutch :-\

[GenerAznX]

does it matter when you blip the gas?

i push in the clutch, move the lever into lower gear, then blip the throttle, then release the clutch :-\


you want to blip and shift at the same time. You want to get it into gear fairly quickly as to not let the rpm's fall too much.

so,

1. brake
2. clutch in
3. blip and shift at the same time
4. release the clutch

[EvoPwr]

does it matter when you blip the gas?

i push in the clutch, move the lever into lower gear, then blip the throttle, then release the clutch :-\


you want to blip and shift at the same time. You want to get it into gear fairly quickly as to not let the rpm's fall too much.

so,

1. brake
2. clutch in
3. blip and shift at the same time
4. release the clutch


yup this will take some practice though, along with a harsh jerking along the way :2funny:

[gh0stch1ld]

well i finally got my answer thanks to GenerAznX. I've been hearing two different stories but i believe i found which one is correct. Thanks for the input guys.

[Evo RS-T]

A heel/toe downshift (or any rev-matched downshift), is a happy downshift - assuming you're within the safe operating RPM range of the engine. Even on the street in traffic, if I need a lower gear, I'll match revs before lifting off of the clutch pedal. You can actually feel that it's less wear on the drivetrain when done properly.

[Miss Evo8]

I am the "Queen" of Heel Toe!!! alright maybe not the "Queen" but at least the "Princess"..... but thats what John Mueller says he wants me to become.....after my "customized" gas pedal! I always tried to do it but couldn't reach the gas pedal and apply enough break preassure. I must tell you after John "fixed" my gas pedal for me all I have to do is "roll" my foot a little bit ....and perfect hell toe "almost" everytime! I'm still practicing on that! I had 1 day at SOW to practice and I did improve by the end of the day. Maybe you can call John to have him "fix" your gas pedal for me. My feet are way too small to do it the conventional way. I would suggest looking into it! I will try to post some pics of my gas pedal.

[Knower]

i think your friend is telling you to heel-toe.

i found this thread useful: http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=870.15


Every SINGLE question posted in this thread is answered in the above post that llxzxll linked. If you guys would learn to search and READ you would have answered your own questions many times over already.

If you double-clutch while rev-matching, you actually have the smoothest shift of all, with the least wear on all surfaces (clutch, synchros, etc...).

"Oh no, but the inturdnet told me that I should pull it out of gear and then put it back in gear when I want to go...help...what do I do?"

[silvery_eagle]

A heel/toe downshift (or any rev-matched downshift), is a happy downshift - assuming you're within the safe operating RPM range of the engine. Even on the street in traffic, if I need a lower gear, I'll match revs before lifting off of the clutch pedal. You can actually feel that it's less wear on the drivetrain when done properly.

yea... listen to Evo RS-T he's the instructor of driving lol

[k2da_izo]

I'm ALWAYS doing the heel-toe technique, even during traffic and coming to a stop on a red light. I know for sure it saves my clutch and synchros since I don't feel a thing when I downshift using this technique. But to be honest with you, I like doing it for two big reasons: First, I don't get the slight "bucking" from releasing the clutch slowly (I like smooth rides and hate babying the clutch). Second, it keeps the driving experience in my Evo spirited. I love attacking a turn when I heel-toe from 4th - 3rd - 2nd - make the turn - accelerate on 2nd and upshift as usual. I'm sure some of you have tried to catch a left-turn signal on yellow and heel-toe shifted as described above to beat the light. Anyone out there do this for fun (in addition to function)?? On my old Civic, I even had the throttle pedal moved forward to make the heel-toe process easier. The placing of the pedals on the Evo seems to be perfect for heel-toe, IMO.

[EvoPwr]

I'm sure some of you have tried to catch a left-turn signal on yellow and heel-toe shifted as described above to beat the light.


you don't need to heel-toe when only downshifting. all you are doing is rev-matching. no need to hit the brake when you are trying to accelerate.

[apexstrafer]

I think he means hauling ass up to a left turn light that's about to change and waiting as late as possible to brake, firing off perfect heel-toe downshifts while doing so. if that's the case, then I'm guilty-as-charged. O0

[k2da_izo]

I think he means hauling ass up to a left turn light that's about to change and waiting as late as possible to brake, firing off perfect heel-toe downshifts while doing so. if that's the case, then I'm guilty-as-charged.* O0


That's EXACTLY what I mean! O0

[GenerAznX]

I think he means hauling ass up to a left turn light that's about to change and waiting as late as possible to brake, firing off perfect heel-toe downshifts while doing so. if that's the case, then I'm guilty-as-charged. O0


+1

[banananut]

I think he means hauling ass up to a left turn light that's about to change and waiting as late as possible to brake, firing off perfect heel-toe downshifts while doing so. if that's the case, then I'm guilty-as-charged. O0


+1


+1... Have to be careful though, some drivers out there are complete morons and turn into the wrong lane when there is 2+ left turning lanes. I was cut off by a Maxima last weekend around 3am heading home. Anticipation is your friend! =)

[trinydex]

does it matter when you blip the gas?

i push in the clutch, move the lever into lower gear, then blip the throttle, then release the clutch :-\

it matters and the correct order is acutally depress clutch, begin brake, move lever out of gear towards desired gear, blip, in gear, release clutch.

the point is to blip while you're passing through neutral this makes teh synchros work the least.

also a perfect rev match neither wears the clutch nor the synchros as you can just fully release the clutch with no rub.

[Knower]

the correct order is acutally depress clutch, begin brake...


:idiot2:

[trinydex]

hmm.... now that i think about sometimes i brake first and then depress clutch... actually... most of the time i do...

[DTunedEvoX]

Yeah I usually Break, Clutch in, Rev, switch gears quickly ..