SpeedtrialUSA at Buttonwillow. Feb. 11-12

[speedform]

SpeedtrialUSA's first event of the new year is coming up fast. As of now it appears we will be running counter-clockwise on the 11th and clockwise on the 12th. Wow! That's almost like running at 2 different tracks! Urr....sort of anyway. :?

see you there...

[rino]

ill be there on my all season tires

[speedform]

ill be there on my all season tires


sweet! you can use it as a drift car!

[shannon-evo]

Let me know if sat is running clockwise.

[speedform]

Let me know if sat is running clockwise.


Looks like Saturday is still running counter-clockwise (although the Speedtrialusa website is a little confusing) and Sunday is clockwise.
I'm guessing you prefer clockwise? If so, come Sunday!

[mochanges]

Just wondering if the guy who thought he blew his bottom end on Saturday found of what wrong. Anyone know?

[Richard EVO]

Just wondering if the guy who thought he blew his bottom end on Saturday found of what wrong. Anyone know?


Was this an EVO?

[bd307]

How are the events run by SpeedtrialUSA now? I attended one in 2004 at SOW and I did not feel like the event was organzied. I was a first time beginning at that time and did not go out for track days after the experience with them. I am planning to do more track days starting this year as I got out of college with more time ;)

I did not know it was my group's turn until my friend who brought me there and told me it was my turn for the session :'(

Richard, from other posts, I see that you go to almost every single track day and could you please list some current organzation for getting the track days for this year? In my bookmark, I have speedtrialUSA, speed Venturn, and Redline.

Thanks all and hopefully I will be seeing you guys at tracks soon.

[GokuSSJ4]

from my past experience, i rather choose another different type of organization to participate at a track event then speed trials.

[Richard EVO]

I went to a Speed Trials event last summer, and did not like it at all.* They are young, undisciplined bunch that go sliding all over the place.* Plus they have stupid "tech" rules, no changing run groups, etc. etc.

I like:

www.speedventures.net
www.redlinetrackevents.com
www.racerfactory.com
www.opentrackracing.com
www.americancarracing.com
www.trackmasters-racing.com
www.ncracing.org
www.greenflagdriving.com

If I think of others, I'll post again.

[rino]

mochanges *- I was the one with the black evo helping out the guy who blew his bottomend. After looking it over with the techs over at the rx7 shop we came up with the conclusion that he spun a bearing. The last run session he had it was ticking already according to a buddy of mine. He lost power coming through magic mtn/lost hills - a symptom of a spun bearing..

It's a long story, but he didn't use synthetic 10w-30 as specified by the manual. I gave him one of my tows of 100 miles and he paid the rest to get it over to RRE. I'm looking for a bottom end for him but no one has responded yet. I'm sure RRE will take good care of him.

There were some things I didn't like by how they ran the event but I won't get into it too much.

[Richard EVO]

I have never run with this group before, but some of the NorCalEvo guys do, and I think the events are pretty good. They have an event at Buttonwillow on May 26.

http://home.onemain.com/~bonster/schedule.html

[bd307]

Very nice to have those sites listed. Thank you for the responses.

[earlyapex]

So who was the ham in the black evo with roll bar, black wheels, carbon hood? Who thought the infield was a rally course and couldn't stay on track so he got kicked out of the event. He then proceeded to bounce off the rev limiter in 1st gear in the pits.

Class act.

http://ken.ravingpsycho.com/STUSA/02112006/1%20071.jpg

[rino]

^^ that wasn't me. I didn't come back for Sunday's event.

[Richard EVO]

So who was the ham in the black evo with roll bar, black wheels, carbon hood? Who thought the infield was a rally course and couldn't stay on track so he got kicked out of the event. He then proceeded to bounce off the rev limiter in 1st gear in the pits.

Class act.

http://ken.ravingpsycho.com/STUSA/02112006/1%20071.jpg


That kid is too young to have hair on his balls. :idiot2:

[all stock]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.

[rino]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.


WOW. that's just not right. I'd probably just wait until the next EOC event.

[Richard EVO]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.


Typical Speed Trials USA. Complete bozos

[speedform]

Just wondering if the guy who thought he blew his bottom end on Saturday found of what wrong. Anyone know?


He was having it towed to Roadrace to find out. I'm hoping it wasn't critical. He just bought the car used 5 weeks ago!

[speedform]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.


Actually the beginner clipped the instructor, not the other way around...

The kid with the black Evo was asked to leave after his second warning. It didn't help that he spoke very little english which made it hard to explain to him exactly what he did wrong. Nice enough guy, just a little too dangerous when playing with others.
Apart from our foreign friend and one other yahoo the event went pretty smoothly.
I managed to blow out a shock which made the car sound like it was falling to pieces. It didn't seem to hinder my progress though. ;)

[rino]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.

which evo were you?

Actually the beginner clipped the instructor, not the other way around...

The kid with the black Evo was asked to leave after his second warning. It didn't help that he spoke very little english which made it hard to explain to him exactly what he did wrong. Nice enough guy, just a little too dangerous when playing with others.
Apart from our foreign friend and one other yahoo the event went pretty smoothly.
I managed to blow out a shock which made the car sound like it was falling to pieces. It didn't seem to hinder my progress though. ;)

[C-Spec]

So who was the ham in the black evo with roll bar, black wheels, carbon hood? Who thought the infield was a rally course and couldn't stay on track so he got kicked out of the event. He then proceeded to bounce off the rev limiter in 1st gear in the pits.

Class act.

http://ken.ravingpsycho.com/STUSA/02112006/1%20071.jpg


he even* got a suite on, haha.* trying to look professional.* But the car Looks like all show no go. :2funny:

[Richard EVO]

Sorry for spreading rumors. I don't know if the engine is OK or not.* :uglystupid2:

[speedform]

Wait. This dudes car blew up? :? I thought he just parked it on the trailer 'cause he got the boot. There was another guy there with a freshly painted medium grey Evo that spun a bearing. I think he took his car to RRE. Mike W.'s doing pretty good these days!

[Richard EVO]

see above :mitsu:

[speedform]

see above :mitsu:


Yeah...other than the 1/2 pound of dirt from sunset corner he took home, the car was still running fine.

[speedform]

mochanges - I was the one with the black evo helping out the guy who blew his bottomend. After looking it over with the techs over at the rx7 shop we came up with the conclusion that he spun a bearing. The last run session he had it was ticking already according to a buddy of mine. He lost power coming through magic mtn/lost hills - a symptom of a spun bearing..

It's a long story, but he didn't use synthetic 10w-30 as specified by the manual. I gave him one of my tows of 100 miles and he paid the rest to get it over to RRE. I'm looking for a bottom end for him but no one has responded yet. I'm sure RRE will take good care of him.

There were some things I didn't like by how they ran the event but I won't get into it too much.


Actually rino I'd like to hear what you didn't like about the event? It's easier to improve on something if you know what the problems are. Your input would be appreciated. Please PM me when you have a chance. thanks,

[Richard EVO]

speedform -

Although you didn't ask for it, and you may have seen my critcism before, here are the specific reasons that I did not like the one Speed Trials USA event I attended last year at Buttonwillow:

1.* During a very long driver's meeting they talked about Safety, Safety, Safety . . .* Then you go out in the high intermediate group, and people are spinning out all over the place.* Three drivers spun out right in front of me, which is a lot for one track day.* One of them was the organizer's friend, driving the organizer's car.* He spun out in Cotton Corners and did what you are not supposed to do -- he tried to save it, came right back across the track, and I barely missed him.

2.* The STUSA website says you should get pre-teched at a local race shop.* This is a real pain in the ass, but I did it -- the only group I have ever run with that requires this.* The inspector said I needed new tires before running.* I obviously know more about RA-1s than the inspector -- I had 2 days left on those tires for sure.* Then I get to the track and I am forced to get in the tech line with everyone else who didn't get pre-teched.* SO WTF was the point of getting pre-teched???

3.* I went out in the middle of the day with an instructor to get a little help with my lines.* We went out in the low intermediate group.* After half a session, he got out of the car and I was going to go back out and finish the session to practice what he showed me.* The guy at the hot pit wouldn't let me go out, because it wasn't my group.* That's idiotic under the circumstances.

Then there's this from another STUSA event at Streets of Willow last summer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/richard350z/STiSOWCrash.jpg

[rino]

I PM'd speedform on a couple other things. But I agree with #1 and #2. I got pre-tech'd just to get tech'd again (which I don't mind) since so many things can change before the track date. Groups should be a little bit more organized throughout the day. There were some people in my intermediate group that clearly did not belong there...

[speedform]

speedform -

Although you didn't ask for it, and you may have seen my critcism before, here are the specific reasons that I did not like the one Speed Trials USA event I attended last year at Buttonwillow:

1. During a very long driver's meeting they talked about Safety, Safety, Safety . . . Then you go out in the high intermediate group, and people are spinning out all over the place. Three drivers spun out right in front of me, which is a lot for one track day. One of them was the organizer's friend, driving the organizer's car. He spun out in Cotton Corners and did what you are not supposed to do -- he tried to save it, came right back across the track, and I barely missed him.

2. The STUSA website says you should get pre-teched at a local race shop. This is a real pain in the ass, but I did it -- the only group I have ever run with that requires this. The inspector said I needed new tires before running. I obviously know more about RA-1s than the inspector -- I had 2 days left on those tires for sure. Then I get to the track and I am forced to get in the tech line with everyone else who didn't get pre-teched. SO WTF was the point of getting pre-teched???

3. I went out in the middle of the day with an instructor to get a little help with my lines. We went out in the low intermediate group. After half a session, he got out of the car and I was going to go back out and finish the session to practice what he showed me. The guy at the hot pit wouldn't let me go out, because it wasn't my group. That's idiotic under the circumstances.

Then there's this from another STUSA event at Streets of Willow last summer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/richard350z/STiSOWCrash.jpg


Richard,

Yes, I have seen your complaints before and I agree with you on your first two points listed above. Let me attempt to address them.

1. Monitoring such a large group has proven somewhat difficult. The instructors are in charge of the beginner group and we try very hard to instill in them a certain level of basic track knowledge we think will help them to 1: play it safe and 2: still have fun.
As hard as we try to pound it into their heads there is always going to be one or two bad seeds in the group that can spoil the day. Their ego's far out way their talent and they will not allow themselves to learn. These are the ones that get sent home early, like our foreign friend with the black EVO shown above.
The intermediates are a different story. They tend to feel that if they have 1-3 track days under their belt, it gives them license to drive like a@#holes. Every organization has them. How to monitor them has proven to be an issue. We are in the process of trying out different ideas in the hopes of tighter control over this group.

2. Pre-tech. This drives me up the wall as well. The idea was implemented to help thin out the cars needing to be tech'd at the track, which intern would allow us to get the run groups on track sooner. Obviously this hasn't worked like the organizers planned. I'll see what changes if any, can be made.

3. This is the one area I can't agree with you on Richard. Allowing a car to run in a group that is not their's simply adds to the confusion; something people are already complaining about. I don't know of any organization that allows a car to go out in other runs groups (anyone?), or what's the point of having run groups. Your car was allowed on track during that session because an instructor was behind the wheel. We are allowed to take a student out anytime so as to not mess the students track time running in their designated run group. I would think this would be a good thing.
In regards to the photo of the wrecked STI. To call attention to the photo and insinuate it was STUSA's fault that it occurred is completely irresponsible. You were not there. I was. No more than 30 yards away when it occurred. It was a freak incident and could've happened to anyone. ANYONE. Including advanced level drivers.
Since this incident, new rules were put in place to help reduce the amount of on track mistakes and to help prevent multiple injuries.
1. No passengers allowed. I'm still not sure I believe this one helps but if a student happens to be involved in an on track incident, they won't be risking the safety of others who might be in the car with them.
2. Parade laps at the beginning of the day to help 'familiarize' people to the track. This is helpful to those who haven't been on track in awhile as well as to those who have never set foot on a road course.
3. In car communication for instructors. Allows us to call in and report any on-track incidences from hooligan drivers and the like, then deal with them accordingly.

These are just a few things we have started in the hopes of improving the organization. If anyone has any new ideas I'd be happy to listen. cheers,

[Richard EVO]

speedform -

I'd like to reply to a few of your comments. First, drivers with 1 - 3 events under their belts are not intermediate drivers. They are still beginners.

Second, I don't know what you mean about switching run groups. Speed Ventures lets me do it all the time to get more track time, as long as the groups aren't too crowded. They have 4 run groups, and the only one I don't go out in is Advanced, because those guys are really fast. With Redline Track Events, I sometimes run in Intermediate, and sometimes in Advanced. As long as you are comfortable with the passing rules, I don't see how there can be any confusion. The group I went out in with the instructor in my car could not have been too crowded at that time, or we woudn't have been let out on track at all. Open Track Racing opens up the track in the afternoon, sometimes the last 2 hours, and everyone can run. As long as people know what to expect and follow the rules, it's no problem.

As for the STi at Streets, the guy was driving with no air bag, an open face helmet, and the stock 3-point harness. That apparently got past the pre-tech, and he didn't learn enough in the class not to swerve violently to avoid debris when flying down the front straight. I don't blame it on Speed Trials, but it happened on their watch.

[bd307]

I do really hope that STUSA did improve since the last time I attended an event with you guys in 2004 at SOW. I was driving my civic at that time and I was in the beginning group. Without my friend who brought me there for the event, I would not know it was my turn to run for my group. No one announced anything about whose turn was that. I guess there were a lot of people who had attended events with you guys before, so they knew it was their turn.

As for the beginning groups, I have to give credit to the instructors. They are helpful and very well concerned about the beginners' safety. I am not sure about how they treat those intermediate groups, but they taught the beginners and emphasize on safety and did practice it within the beginner's group.

[rino]

You just have to really pay attention and just listen. You can also look at the cars pulling to the pits with the designated run group on the window.

[speedform]

Richard,

First, I am totally in agreement with you in regards to a driver not having enough experience with only 3 track days under their belt. That was the point I was trying to make earlier. THEY think they are ready to move up the ladder with so little experience.
I can tell you when I first started doing this with SCCA and NASA, I stayed in beginner's group for a year (approx. 18-20 track days) before I moved up to intermediate. They had to kick me out actually!
Second, STUSA runs two intermediate run groups; slow and fast intermediate. In the most basic of terms, this is done to help separate those with 'some' track experience to those with 'more'. Unfortunately at this time there is no way to police this breakup. It's all done on the honor system, which means one can go online and LIE about how much experience he/she actually has and sign up accordingly. It's far from perfect but until a 'grading' system can be developed and implemented, it's all we got.
This past weekend we had so few intermediates running that we combined the two groups and extended the run time to 1/2 hour. This allowed more track time for everyone but also may have contributed to more spins in the group. More than we like to see anyway.
On the day you went the schedule was set up with slow and fast intermediates running separately, which is why they didn't let you go out in another run group.
And like I said, the instructor can go out anytime, no matter how busy it is and STUSA is always busy, much more so than the organizations you mentioned. This past weekend was the lowest turnout I've seen yet.
As far as the STI driver goes, he had an open face helmet that was DOT and SNELL approved, a steering wheel that, while retarded to have in a street car, was FIA approved and isn't illegal and a SPARCO rear hinged 3 point harness. The harnesses actually stretched 4 inches upon impact and when put into combination with the open faced helmet, no steering wheel and an 80-0 mph deceleration, something bad is going to happen. But what do you do? Everything in his car was legal for track use.
Since the incident STUSA requires all drivers to wear a closed helmet but the point is you can't plan for every incident. How was the driver to know the large object he was flying towards at 120 mph was only a wheel well liner and not something much 'heavier'? His 'manouvering' while incorrect was instinctive. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing were it me in the car. Hindsights 20/20...



speedform -

I'd like to reply to a few of your comments. First, drivers with 1 - 3 events under their belts are not intermediate drivers. They are still beginners.

Second, I don't know what you mean about switching run groups. Speed Ventures lets me do it all the time to get more track time, as long as the groups aren't too crowded. They have 4 run groups, and the only one I don't go out in is Advanced, because those guys are really fast. With Redline Track Events, I sometimes run in Intermediate, and sometimes in Advanced. As long as you are comfortable with the passing rules, I don't see how there can be any confusion. The group I went out in with the instructor in my car could not have been too crowded at that time, or we woudn't have been let out on track at all. Open Track Racing opens up the track in the afternoon, sometimes the last 2 hours, and everyone can run. As long as people know what to expect and follow the rules, it's no problem.

As for the STi at Streets, the guy was driving with no air bag, an open face helmet, and the stock 3-point harness. That apparently got past the pre-tech, and he didn't learn enough in the class not to swerve violently to avoid debris when flying down the front straight. I don't blame it on Speed Trials, but it happened on their watch.

[Richard EVO]

Actually, I use an open face helmet, but I have an airbag, for god's sake. On the day I went with STUSA, I brought with me an alert from SCCA saying that closed face helmets can be dangerous with air-bag equipped cars, and SCCA recommends open face helmets with airbags. I think that bulletin has been made even stronger by now.

Different groups draw different crowds. STUSA seems to draw a very young, inexperienced, and "exuberent" crowd. Apparently, that is successful for you, and I wish you all the best.

Racerfactory draws a lot of stock street cars, Audis and VWs, etc. on one end, and Radicals on theother. Open Track Racing draws an older crowd, mostly Corvettes and Porsches. Green Flag Driving is mostly vintage Mustang GT350s, Cobras and other muscle cars -- older drivers too. Speedventures is a little of everything, including fully race-prepped cars, sports racers, a lot of S2000s. Their Red group is very fast. Redline has a mix too, but is quickly becoming home to a lot of EVOs from this board.

It's all good. After a while you learn where you belong.

[rino]

http://www.c5forum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/249.html
http://sccaforums.com/forums/168516/ShowThread.aspx

looks like they recommend open face helmets because air bag cars can deploy hit the helmet and crush your jaw. that's insane. i'm due for a new helmet, i'll be looking at open face helmets then..

[speedform]

http://www.c5forum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/249.html
http://sccaforums.com/forums/168516/ShowThread.aspx

looks like they recommend open face helmets because air bag cars can deploy hit the helmet and crush your jaw. that's insane. i'm due for a new helmet, i'll be looking at open face helmets then..


If your really worried about frontal impact, get a HANS device.

[Muellerized...]

http://www.c5forum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/249.html
http://sccaforums.com/forums/168516/ShowThread.aspx

looks like they recommend open face helmets because air bag cars can deploy hit the helmet and crush your jaw. that's insane. i'm due for a new helmet, i'll be looking at open face helmets then..


If your really worried about frontal impact, get a HANS device.

I prefer not having a bomb (airbag) in my track driven cars, as there are too many types of impacts where the likelyhood of being injured by the airbag is greater than the risk of being injured by the incident itself.

As far as helmets, if you have a $50 head, a $50 helmet is a fine choice. I wear a full face helmet with face shield at all times on track due to how much debris gets thrown up into the car at speed, and the fact that a full face helmet offers superior protection.

After racing for over 20 years, I find the self policing method the best way to have order in any track scenario. I have seen issues at virtually every track day groups events without exception, and communication between drivers off the track in the paddock leads to better communication on track. If you have an issue with someone, no matter how large or small, go politely introduce yourself and discuss the on track situation like a reasonable human being. You will find dealing with the involved parties directly will have a greater influence on their/your behavior than posting about them on a messageboard will.

[GokuSSJ4]

he even* got a suite on, haha.* trying to look professional.* But the car Looks like all show no go.* :2funny:


sounds like some one that recently when to a SoW event :P wearing a professional suit while holding the entire group during turn 1 because the person decided to start braking way to damn early..

[GokuSSJ4]

I PM'd speedform on a couple other things. But I agree with #1 and #2. I got pre-tech'd just to get tech'd again (which I don't mind) since so many things can change before the track date. Groups should be a little bit more organized throughout the day. There were some people in my intermediate group that clearly did not belong there...

this alone made the event a pain in the ass, like other have express, whats the point if you get pre-tech and then you end up wasting over an 1hr just for some jack ass to take a look at your stuff and doesn't know how to destinguish from street tires then RA1's... other friends of mine had a bad experience as well... took way too long , loosing plenty of track time...

[all stock]

i think he was running the beginner group?

sunday was a good amount of track time, but i don't think i'll be running stusa again. an instructor clipped one of our beginner guys.


Actually the beginner clipped the instructor, not the other way around...



Who were you on Sunday? Just curious. If you were there on Sunday, I'm sure you know most of the details, but just to clarify: Red celica (beg) is passed by silver rx-8 (instructor)

The instructor says the beginner was offline, so it's his fault. The beginner didn't know the line. Also, he gave a point-by on the left, from which the instructor passed on the right. Additionally, from what I was taught, the passing party is almost always responsible for making a safe pass, and on the noted side.



One of the reasons he didn't know the line, is because there are no ride-alongs allowed with more experienced drivers. I'll admit, I only have been to about 10+ events and have only been driving for about 3 years, but when I first ran an STUSA event in Jan 03, it helped a great deal to ride-a-long with more experienced drivers.

We've been working with Tommy for quite some time. I'll admit, in the beginning I really appreciated his organization and how everything was run. Lately, he's been getting a streak of shitty luck, but in other instances, I wonder if I can write it off entirely on luck.

Quite a few people were complaining that the instructors were passing beginners left, right, everywhere, in corners, midcorner, stealing apex's. I don't see those actions as something to look up to or follow. The beginners in your group are like little kids, they follow your actions and mimic how you guys drive. Frankly, some of the instructors that day were passing like assholes.

I could go on since I've been with STUSA for some time now, but I think I'll leave the rest up to Tommy.

[Richard EVO]

Who were you on Sunday? Just curious. If you were there on Sunday, I'm sure you know most of the details, but just to clarify: Red celica (beg) is passed by silver rx-8 (instructor)

The instructor says the beginner was offline, so it's his fault. The beginner didn't know the line. Also, he gave a point-by on the left, from which the instructor passed on the right. Additionally, from what I was taught, the passing party is almost always responsible for making a safe pass, and on the noted side.



One of the reasons he didn't know the line, is because there are no ride-alongs allowed with more experienced drivers. I'll admit, I only have been to about 10+ events and have only been driving for about 3 years, but when I first ran an STUSA event in Jan 03, it helped a great deal to ride-a-long with more experienced drivers.

We've been working with Tommy for quite some time. I'll admit, in the beginning I really appreciated his organization and how everything was run. Lately, he's been getting a streak of shitty luck, but in other instances, I wonder if I can write it off entirely on luck.

Quite a few people were complaining that the instructors were passing beginners left, right, everywhere, in corners, midcorner, stealing apex's. I don't see those actions as something to look up to or follow. The beginners in your group are like little kids, they follow your actions and mimic how you guys drive. Frankly, some of the instructors that day were passing like assholes.

I could go on since I've been with STUSA for some time now, but I think I'll leave the rest up to Tommy.

:buck2:* Instructors who pass newbies willy-nilly, especially on the other side of the car from where they were pointed, and then blame it on the student, should not be instructors.* They shouldn't even be allowed at the event.* :uglystupid2:

[all stock]

Just to clarify, he was a new instructor to STUSA.

[all stock]

Ok, just to announce, a settlement was agreed upon in everyone's favor. Both parties seem content with the deal so that's that.

[Richard EVO]

Ok, just to announce, a settlement was agreed upon in everyone's favor. Both parties seem content with the deal so that's that.


Well that's fine for them. But it leaves the general issue open . . .