It's cam time!

[WavMixer]

I'm ready to install some cams and I have been through this forum looking at all the posts. What I still don't see is a comparison with different grinds and makers. For example a dyno chart for the same car with stock, 264/264, 264/272, 272/272 results would be nice. Maybe even HKS vs. Buddy Club vs. whatever. I'm not concerned with a lopey idle, I just don't want to sacrafice bottom end for top end. I want my cake and to be able to eat it to. Mind you this car is either on the track or making tofu runs, it's not a daily driver. Mike W or Scot, please chime in here.

[leaveit2bevo]

im pretty sure hks and bc cams make identical power.

[hksevo8]

I would suggest that along with a cam install, you strongly consider valves and springs.* Cams are only good if you do the full package. For a full explanation of what i am saying, check out this months SCC article about aftermarket bolt ons.

[alfredob1]

They were talking about crazy race cams with super long durations and lift. The 264's and 272's have been in use on stock drivetrains for a long while now and have been shown to work well without upgrading valves and springs. Sure it wouldn't hurt but that's another $500 to $1000 dollars to spend.

[trinydex]

scot will tell you hks, those are the only cams proven to work over the test of time and being in his position he cannot with good conscience recommend anything otherwise.

[Blaze]

Grant:

You aren't going to find huge differences between WHP figures. And those that you do, consider the parts and the tune before declaring tha the cam made more or less power.

Many cams may have the same peak duration, but differ greatly in their specs. HKS 272s are not identicle to a JUN 272 which are no where close to a reground 272.

You will have to find and understand the exact specs of each cam your considering if you are really interested in finding what's "best" for your set up.

There are several pages dedicated to understanding cam specs, I'll see if I can find a few and post them up later today.

Good luck.
I look forward to you letting us know your final findings (and why),

Blaze

[Blaze]

The 264's and 272's have been in use on stock drivetrains for a long while now and have been shown to work well without upgrading valves and springs.


That's true with HKS and BCs, however it's not applicable with all cam manufacturers (specifically with the larger durations (272+)

[hksevo8]

I will have to go back and double check the article, but in any case, I still think valves and springs are a good addition to any cam install. *If your gonna do it once, might as well do it right.

[hksevo8]

I can also attest that when HKS builds motors using 272's they usually upgrade the valves and springs too.

[wirespeed]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=191427

here is a comparison between jun 272s and hks 280...dunno if its the right comparison you're looking since it is on a big turbo and bigger cams but heres a start

[GokuSSJ4]

you have different options. Most people will recommend HKS cams since it doesn't require any upgrades of valvesprings or cam gears in order to achieve best results.
Different manufactores use different cam profiles, lift , lift duration amoung other things. It would be un fair for you to compare Jun vs HKS do to both having the same duration.
Some of the cams that have been tested and shown proof that work very well with the stock turbo are 272/272 .. dyno sheets have been posted (not an evo ) but a 4g63 motor, the difference amoung all the HKS cams.. the best midrange was the 264/272
but the difference amoung 264/272 vs 272/272 was minimum.

now you have others like this one
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=191427&page=1&pp=15
this is not a stock car by any means but it shows you that gains can be achieved by switching cams ..
Other brands that you can consider but it is recommended that you upgrade your valvetrain
Tomei 270/270 11.5mm
260/260 11.5 mm
Jun 272/272 10.8mm
crowder cams 280/280 11.0mm

[airforce1]

agree. *My 264/272 were without upgraded valave/springs. *no problems here.

[hksevo8]

guys, guys, guys....I am not saying you will have problems by not upgrading the springs and valves. What I am saying is that you will get better performance with the use of them. COME ON...the engineers at Mistu designed the head to be used with the cams they install, not the ones we buy from the aftermarket.

[WavMixer]

Agreed that upgrading the springs and retainers will be benificial, however I plan to do all those upgrades when the head comes off. I'll replace the head studs, do some porting and try to take advantage of all those mods in one shot when the head is off. For right now, I just wanna replace the cams and maybe gears. Later this year I'll be replacing the turbo and plan to have the head work done prior to turbo upgrade.

This year looks to be a good year for my Evo. New suspension going in next week, cams next week and turbo in a couple of months. EMS is also in the future, hopefully before the end of the year.

[WavMixer]

im pretty sure hks and bc cams make identical power.
Mike W says the same on his website. I'm waiting for a return call from the 4G63 master himself.

[WavMixer]

im pretty sure hks and bc cams make identical power.
Mike W says the same on his website. I'm waiting for a return call from the 4G63 master himself.


then if thatas the case why even ask...
I made this statement in hopes that someone would know of a comparison.


I still don't see is a comparison with different grinds and makers. For example a dyno chart for the same car with stock, 264/264, 264/272, 272/272 results would be nice. Maybe even HKS vs. Buddy Club vs. whatever.
I placed a call to Mike because everyone has an answer... but not to my original question.

[alfredob1]

The 264's and 272's have been in use on stock drivetrains for a long while now and have been shown to work well without upgrading valves and springs.


That's true with HKS and BCs, however it's not applicable with all cam manufacturers (specifically with the larger durations (272+)

Sorry, I should have been more sepcific, I was referring to HKS cams.

[leaveit2bevo]

if your going with a bigger turbo you should go with the 272/272

[AvengeDEvO]

hksevo8 is right about the cams. My buddy just dropped 2k on a full JUN 272/272 upgrade :smitten: . Its very high in price but they are proven to produce 55 more whp then the hks 280 cams. If you dont belive me call AMS or just look on their website. The kit comes with valve springs, retainers, and a other things that i dont recall.

[WOT]

I just don't want to sacrafice bottom end for top end. 264's


Mind you this car is either on the track or making tofu runs, it's not a daily driver.
280's


I want my cake and to be able to eat it to.
272's

Good luck on the decision ;)

i have extracted some ams data conducted on a 4g63 non-evo engine using HKS cams & put it into an excel graph, the 264's dont give up that much to the 272's, [forum-restricted] & dyno al have also provided/stated similar findings with evo 8's, however you get many people saying that the 272's made more/stronger power over 264's???

pm me your email address & I will send you all the overlays/compares that i have collected if you want them.

Personally, i am of the belief that when peole say that "the 272's pull way harder", this is due to the 272's lose power down low compared to the 264's, so when the engine comes-on-the-cam, the 272's give the impression that they're stronger.

I like the 264's, the 264int/272ex is still very drivable, all on the stock turbo. 35r, then jun 272's.

my 0.02 cents

Once again, Good luck on the decision O0

[earlyapex]

I just don't want to sacrafice bottom end for top end. I want my cake and to be able to eat it to.


I don't have comparison charts for the different types of aftermarket cams but I do have this for the difference between stock cams/gears and HKS 272/272 with HKS cam gears and properly tuned for it, no loss anywhere, gains everywhere.

Look at the curves not the numbers since the ECU+ dyno is 10 HP off the mustang dyno I was on when I made this log

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/dyno/010706/ecuplus_overlay02.gif

[EvoPwr]

again the jun 272s were said to have a horrible idle, AMS wouldnt attempt to run jun 272s unless you were not on a stock ecu. so unless you have an EMS you wont be able to idle.

[AvengeDEvO]

again the jun 272s were said to have a horrible idle, AMS wouldnt attempt to run jun 272s unless you were not on a stock ecu. so unless you have an EMS you wont be able to idle.


Yes I forgot to mention this. But if you are going to upgrade the turbo then maybe you should consider upgrading to an EMS

[EvoPwr]

again the jun 272s were said to have a horrible idle, AMS wouldnt attempt to run jun 272s unless you were not on a stock ecu. so unless you have an EMS you wont be able to idle.

not any worse then 280's or any high lift cam , since that is what is the cause of the ruff idle.
280s can idle just fine with tuning of cam gears and idle. no need for aftermarket ECU.

[GokuSSJ4]

if your going with a bigger turbo you should go with the 272/272

if you are getting a bigger turbo then cams like the 280/280 or jun or cosworth should be consider

[EvoPwr]

again the jun 272s were said to have a horrible idle, AMS wouldnt attempt to run jun 272s unless you were not on a stock ecu. so unless you have an EMS you wont be able to idle.


Yes I forgot to mention this. But if you are going to upgrade the turbo then maybe you should consider upgrading to an EMS


there is no need to upgrade to EMS, the safc can still make power and keep the car safe with a 35r, no you wont be able to maximize power, but it still works if you dont have an extra $3000.

[GokuSSJ4]

again the jun 272s were said to have a horrible idle, AMS wouldnt attempt to run jun 272s unless you were not on a stock ecu. so unless you have an EMS you wont be able to idle.

not any worse then 280's or any high lift cam , since that is what is the cause of the ruff idle.
280s can idle just fine with tuning of cam gears and idle. no need for aftermarket ECU.

same thing with the Jun cams, the duration between the 272HKS vs 272 dual Jun cams is the same, what make the Jun cams alot more aggressive is the lift .. it tains to carry the lift alot more through the entire power band then the HKS cams. The design of the lobes are way different, then the HKS. the reason why they require or recommend to upgrade your valvetrain,,,

[rino]

Wav, which did you pick?

FYI - I am running BC 272/272 with 3 track days no problem with countless drag events :P I am going to say now, your 05 w/cams should be a lot faster than my car w/the 9.8.

Give me a ring if you want to run LACR this wed. again. I think a few burbank guys are going.

[WavMixer]

I just don't want to sacrafice bottom end for top end. I want my cake and to be able to eat it to.


I don't have comparison charts for the different types of aftermarket cams but I do have this for the difference between stock cams/gears and HKS 272/272 with HKS cam gears and properly tuned for it, no loss anywhere, gains everywhere.

Look at the curves not the numbers since the ECU+ dyno is 10 HP off the mustang dyno I was on when I made this log

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/dyno/010706/ecuplus_overlay02.gif
This is the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks O0

[WavMixer]

I just don't want to sacrafice bottom end for top end. I want my cake and to be able to eat it to.


I don't have comparison charts for the different types of aftermarket cams but I do have this for the difference between stock cams/gears and HKS 272/272 with HKS cam gears and properly tuned for it, no loss anywhere, gains everywhere.

Look at the curves not the numbers since the ECU+ dyno is 10 HP off the mustang dyno I was on when I made this log

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/dyno/010706/ecuplus_overlay02.gif
This is the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks O0

there was a dyno sheet posted by AMS done on a Talon, it compare all of the different combinations of HKS cams that you are adquiring. I just can't find the link but this information has been cover before, and i dont understand what the big deal really is :?
I want to know the powerband for the cam profiles. Specfically if I would lose low end power with the 272s

[ChrisF]

When I did most of the mods on my car, I asked the guys at RRE if there is any difference between the HKS/BC's. Their answer was no and I went with them. When I got the car tuned at TT, my car was a little down on power compared to other similarly modded cars. Alfred suspected the HFC and the BC cams for the disparity (all other mods being equal). While not scientific, I think Alfred has probably tuned enough of them to have seen a trend. I guess the question then would be, if the HKS's are worth another 5-8whp, is it worth it to you to pay the extra $200? For me, probably not.

[05-EVO-GSR]

When I did most of the mods on my car, I asked the guys at RRE if there is any difference between the HKS/BC's. Their answer was no and I went with them. When I got the car tuned at TT, my car was a little down on power compared to other similarly modded cars. Alfred suspected the HFC and the BC cams for the disparity (all other mods being equal). While not scientific, I think Alfred has probably tuned enough of them to have seen a trend. I guess the question then would be, if the HKS's are worth another 5-8whp, is it worth it to you to pay the extra $200? For me, probably not.


How much were you down on power? I run the RRE Rally Cat and BC 272 and I got 348 AWHP and 348 AWTQ at TT.

I think it was your cat.

[WavMixer]

I just got home from RRE with a pair of BC 272s all boxed up still. Mike told me they are the same grind as HKS. He said it, I believe, that's the gospel. I'm not gonna buy a set of HKS just to compare dyno charts and finally solve this debate. I'm gonna enjoy a Sunday morning swapping cams and then take an afternoon ride through canyon roads that you city dwellers only see in Initail D cartoons 8)

[DTunedEvoX]

I just got home from RRE with a pair of BC 272s all boxed up still. Mike told me they are the same grind as HKS. He said it, I believe, that's the gospel. I'm not gonna buy a set of HKS just to compare dyno charts and finally solve this debate. I'm gonna enjoy a Sunday morning swapping cams and then take an afternoon ride through canyon roads that you city dwellers only see in Initail D cartoons 8)


I need to go up and visit you .. I grow weary of little t and boquet .. Anything equiv to those up there by you Wav? PM ME .. P.S. I have HKS 280's @ -3/-3 and I'm happy with them on the stock turbo ... They arent stock @ least right? lol

[leaveit2bevo]

When I did most of the mods on my car, I asked the guys at RRE if there is any difference between the HKS/BC's. Their answer was no and I went with them. When I got the car tuned at TT, my car was a little down on power compared to other similarly modded cars. Alfred suspected the HFC and the BC cams for the disparity (all other mods being equal). While not scientific, I think Alfred has probably tuned enough of them to have seen a trend. I guess the question then would be, if the HKS's are worth another 5-8whp, is it worth it to you to pay the extra $200? For me, probably not.


2 evos with identical mods dont make exactly the same hp.

[leaveit2bevo]

When I did most of the mods on my car, I asked the guys at RRE if there is any difference between the HKS/BC's. Their answer was no and I went with them. When I got the car tuned at TT, my car was a little down on power compared to other similarly modded cars. Alfred suspected the HFC and the BC cams for the disparity (all other mods being equal). While not scientific, I think Alfred has probably tuned enough of them to have seen a trend. I guess the question then would be, if the HKS's are worth another 5-8whp, is it worth it to you to pay the extra $200? For me, probably not.


2 evos with identical mods dont make exactly the same hp.
Yup, big difference between a Monday car and a Wednesday car.


has anyone ever tested that? TT should start noting engine build dates to see if its true.

[DTunedEvoX]

I just got home from RRE with a pair of BC 272s all boxed up still. Mike told me they are the same grind as HKS. He said it, I believe, that's the gospel. I'm not gonna buy a set of HKS just to compare dyno charts and finally solve this debate. I'm gonna enjoy a Sunday morning swapping cams and then take an afternoon ride through canyon roads that you city dwellers only see in Initail D cartoons 8)


I need to go up and visit you .. I grow weary of little t and boquet .. Anything equiv to those up there by you Wav? PM ME .. P.S. I have HKS 280's @ -3/-3 and I'm happy with them on the stock turbo ... They arent stock @ least right? lol

why not try the cosworth cams ?


I just might - but being that I'm still on the stock turbo and already have the 280's in - I think that'd have to wait and pushed to the backburner ...

[DTunedEvoX]

I have not dyno'd the car yet. Only point of reference (which is pretty accurate if I read correctly ) is ECU+'s dyno plot feature - which I currently use to overlap dynoplots to see if I gain/lose whp/torque and look @ the dyno curve..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/GinuwineEvolution/ECU%20Plus%20SS/GoodRun.jpg

These are with an ECU+ basemap and is 5-7% Rich as hell on 720cc injectors with inut recieved from Early Apex and Scot. It should give you an idea of the way the cams act though.

[earlyapex]

That's also showing approx flywheel power too GinuwineEvo8, since you have drivetrain loss on. ;)

Although that might be a bit closer to the dynojet numbers you socalers are used to seeing. :angel:

[DTunedEvoX]

hehe oh yeah forgot to put it down to 0% Thans EA!

[WavMixer]

Buddy Club 272s can now be added to the spec comparison.

http://wavmixer.com/evo/cams/BC_272_Intake.jpg
http://wavmixer.com/evo/cams/BC_272_Exhaust.jpg

For me personaly, I was interested in a broad powerband increase. I did not want to sacrafice low end torque for high RPM gains. I'm looking forward to seeing how these work. :D

[BMan]

I really like my Tomei 260 procams. Pulls harder than stock all through the rpm range and made the midrange nuts.

[trinydex]

i'm sure you guys are done with this thread but i think something important was glossed over.

when discussing cams it's important to factor in when the individual valve events happen.

264s straight up will most likely produce more torque than 272s straight up. does anyone know why? it's because the intake valve closes sooner and because of the decreased amount of overlap. both these things contribute to a cam profile that bolsters torque and limits high end power.

does that mean that the 272s are a not go if you're staying stock turbo? no. what you have to do is move the intake cam to close at the same point as the 264s. and your exhaust cam could stay the same or also be moved to make more top end.

could you do the same to the 264s? yes, but with less success as the overlap would be a limiting factor.

you can't compare different cams setup straight up. many cams are not symetric, many cams don't maintain stock centerlines or the stock centerlines that they retain ARE NOT where they "should" be run.

take goku's cossie cams for example. he lost 30 some odd horsepower compared to his hks 272 cams. the cossies have more lift and more duration, it's a no brainer that they SHOULD make more power. but the problem is he's running a stock turbo. the increased exhaust pressure, the overlap and the intake valve closing a lot later in the cycle is likely contaminating his combustion, this is what makes the reduction in power. the air flow is there!!!! BUUUUUUT the cam timing is NOT!!!!

be careful... and if you want something hassle free... set at 00 good luck cuz you won't get the best of anything.

[GokuSSJ4]

i'm sure you guys are done with this thread but i think something important was glossed over.

when discussing cams it's important to factor in when the individual valve events happen.

264s straight up will most likely produce more torque than 272s straight up. does anyone know why? it's because the intake valve closes sooner and because of the decreased amount of overlap. both these things contribute to a cam profile that bolsters torque and limits high end power.

does that mean that the 272s are a not go if you're staying stock turbo? no. what you have to do is move the intake cam to close at the same point as the 264s. and your exhaust cam could stay the same or also be moved to make more top end.

could you do the same to the 264s? yes, but with less success as the overlap would be a limiting factor.

you can't compare different cams setup straight up. many cams are not symetric, many cams don't maintain stock centerlines or the stock centerlines that they retain ARE NOT where they "should" be run.

take goku's cossie cams for example. he lost 30 some odd horsepower compared to his hks 272 cams. the cossies have more lift and more duration, it's a no brainer that they SHOULD make more power. but the problem is he's running a stock turbo. the increased exhaust pressure, the overlap and the intake valve closing a lot later in the cycle is likely contaminating his combustion, this is what makes the reduction in power. the air flow is there!!!! BUUUUUUT the cam timing is NOT!!!!

be careful... and if you want something hassle free... set at 00 good luck cuz you won't get the best of anything.

very true, so cam gears are mandatory when messing around with cams with hi lift, like the Tomei, Jun ,cosworth, revolver, pipers , etc..
HKS seems to be the best cam out there that doesnt required any cam gears at all.
for those that want to take the time doing some search, choosing another cam combo can be fun. but those that dont have the patience stick with the HKS cams

[trinydex]

that's not true, look at the 272 compared to 264. you could have more torque just like the 264s. but you need to use the cam gears, put the bump in the right place.

[GokuSSJ4]

that's not true, look at the 272 compared to 264. you could have more torque just like the 264s. but you need to use the cam gears, put the bump in the right place.

thats just shifting the power band, but it wouldnt affect things such as other cams due....

[trinydex]

i'm just saying that even the hks at 00 have something to be desired, mainly that they can make more as earlyapex has already showed.

[leaveit2bevo]

how much of a gain are we talking?

[GokuSSJ4]

how much of a gain are we talking?

on what

[trinydex]

why? the cossies should be best. ams car did fine with them.

[GokuSSJ4]

why? the cossies should be best. ams car did fine with them.
AMS has Jun cams . not cossies.....

[GokuSSJ4]

Dear God! Goku is at it again comparing cams!

yes i am, and i will get to try Jun cams next....


you know you're running out of cam options......
you should look into making your own cams since u love them so much..... :buck2:


if i could, i would.. even though piper do offer custom cam specs LOL ... maybe i can contact them and have them create a certain cam profile for my car :P

[trinydex]

why? the cossies should be best. ams car did fine with them.
AMS has Jun cams . not cossies.....

look at their time attack car and what head + cams they run.

also... what good would the juns provide you over the cossies? both have increased lift and both are around hks's 280 in duration... so which hairs are you hoping to split?

why are you trying to mimick ams's gt42 or gt47 turbo evo when you will have a gt3076? why not mimick their gt35r car that has the cosworth head and cams in it?

[GokuSSJ4]

why? the cossies should be best. ams car did fine with them.
AMS has Jun cams . not cossies.....

look at their time attack car and what head + cams they run.

also... what good would the juns provide you over the cossies? both have increased lift and both are around hks's 280 in duration... so which hairs are you hoping to split?

why are you trying to mimick ams's gt42 or gt47 turbo evo when you will have a gt3076? why not mimick their gt35r car that has the cosworth head and cams in it?

because at the time being, my cossies suck! .... I need a bigger turbo.. waiting for a nice 3076R (stock look mani to come along ) .... thats next.. I'm tired of swapping stock alike turbos

[airforce1]

why do the cosworths suck? Not making enough power?

[GokuSSJ4]

why do the cosworths suck? Not making enough power?

theres a couple of issues i have run into,,, since i change 2 parts at the same time
but the car pulls hard but its dyno shy.,....

[trinydex]

it's also cuz you have the gears set at +4 +2... i mean you could try a more top end friendly setup but you say the spool is crazy. that's what cam advance does dude... it makes big wide torque curves, not dyno queen horsepower. i bet your spool was not so good with hks cams... and i bet it won't be as good with jun cams setup in* the same way.

if you want more top end then go for a +2 0 setup...

if you get a 3076 you're still not gonna get nuts hard spool up like that. and if you leave it at +4 +2 you're gonna chocke off top end cuz with a 3076 your turbo will actually FLOW the 280s up top... the fact is your 9 turbo doesn't, that's why you can make such nutty spool numbers nad not choke off a ton up top, even though you ARE choking off SOME up top. (at the moment)

how many settings did you test? did you try them all? why are you so quick to toss out hte baby with the bathwater? swapping cams isn't gonna cure anything. you're refusing to work with what you have.

btw did you find out why you're only running 17psi up top?

[GokuSSJ4]

it's also cuz you have the gears set at +4 +2... i mean you could try a more top end friendly setup but you say the spool is crazy. that's what cam advance does dude... it makes big wide torque curves, not dyno queen horsepower. i bet your spool was not so good with hks cams... and i bet it won't be as good with jun cams setup in the same way.

if you want more top end then go for a +2 0 setup...

if you get a 3076 you're still not gonna get nuts hard spool up like that. and if you leave it at +4 +2 you're gonna chocke off top end cuz with a 3076 your turbo will actually FLOW the 280s up top... the fact is your 9 turbo doesn't, that's why you can make such nutty spool numbers nad not choke off a ton up top, even though you ARE choking off SOME up top. (at the moment)

how many settings did you test? did you try them all? why are you so quick to toss out hte baby with the bathwater? swapping cams isn't gonna cure anything. you're refusing to work with what you have.

btw did you find out why you're only running 17psi up top?
we tried +2 - 0 it gains spool up and tq but no top end..
also did a boost leak yesterday and everythign seem ok... i'm getting a Forge WGA to see if the stock one isnt holding boost like it should. We shall see if that solves the problem..
If not im trying out something different...

[earlyapex]

we tried +2 - 0 it gains spool up and tq but no top end..
also did a boost leak yesterday and everythign seem ok... i'm getting a Forge WGA to see if the stock one isnt holding boost like it should. We shall see if that solves the problem..
If not im trying out something different...


Try +1/-1 or something like that. It gave pretty good results on my car. Good spool and good top end for what I have. I am actually going to try out +2 or +3 on the intake soon.

[GokuSSJ4]

we tried +2 - 0 it gains spool up and tq but no top end..
also did a boost leak yesterday and everythign seem ok... i'm getting a Forge WGA to see if the stock one isnt holding boost like it should. We shall see if that solves the problem..
If not im trying out something different...



Try +1/-1 or something like that. It gave pretty good results on my car. Good spool and good top end for what I have. I am actually going to try out +2 or +3 on the intake soon.

the only thing i didnt get to try was +4 -1 , on the exhaust area... maybe once i get my forge WGA i will!
but i never seem cams be so indepent with cam gears

[earlyapex]

the only thing i didnt get to try was +4 -1 , on the exhaust area... maybe once i get my forge WGA i will!
but i never seem cams be so indepent with cam gears


Yea I tried a bunch of combos. +1 intake / -1 exhaust was the best I got so far. I tryed the -4/-1 people suggest but my spool sucked and my top end didn't gain much.

Advancing the intake really makes the turbo hit hard. You have to be careful once you start advancing it a bunch because it will become more sensitive to preignition.

[EvoPwr]

i use -3/-3 and it works pretty good for me, i have 272s

[GokuSSJ4]

i use -3/-3 and it works pretty good for me, i have 272s

when you decide to go - on cam gears, you can usually improve top end but spool up soffers

[EvoPwr]

i use -3/-3 and it works pretty good for me, i have 272s

when you decide to go - on cam gears, you can usually improve top end but spool up soffers


that is true so that is why i upgraded i/c and piping, gets a little bit back

[GokuSSJ4]

i use -3/-3 and it works pretty good for me, i have 272s

when you decide to go - on cam gears, you can usually improve top end but spool up soffers


that is true so that is why i upgraded i/c and piping, gets a little bit back

LOL i have all those things already so i have no option :(

[trinydex]

we tried +2 - 0 it gains spool up and tq but no top end..
also did a boost leak yesterday and everythign seem ok... i'm getting a Forge WGA to see if the stock one isnt holding boost like it should. We shall see if that solves the problem..
If not im trying out something different...


Try +1/-1 or something like that. It gave pretty good results on my car. Good spool and good top end for what I have. I am actually going to try out +2 or +3 on the intake soon.

ok so i've been hunting goku's problem. few things that i was WRONG WRONG WRONG about.

by looking at the cam specs it's difficult to determine what the cossies are similar to. since tehy're made in the us they use sae measurements. that means the duration is calculated using .01" this is nothing like 1mm in fact it's .254mm which is about a 7th of what the hks style cams measure it as.

this means all the "280" references i've been making are WRONG. we can't readily assume that the duration of these bad boys is actually as long as the hks 280 style cams.

the lift at least is no question. 11mm (why they use mm here is beyond me).

so... goku told me he seperated the cams by 2 degrees and the idle was fine. this should be the first indication that these cams are NOT 280 style. that said... i believe he should try what early apex is suggesting and tighten up the lsa about and around the 00 degree.

the thing that sparked all this cam talk was that i was trying to find the lobe centerlines for the cossies. they do in fact advertise them. the problem? i can't find them for the good darn hks cams! BAAAAAH. once i get a good comparison here we can establish where the cossie cams should close the intake valve, from there we can determine where we should open the exhaust valve nad we can try to find goku some horsies.

[trinydex]

the only thing i didnt get to try was +4 -1 , on the exhaust area... maybe once i get my forge WGA i will!
but i never seem cams be so indepent with cam gears




Yea I tried a bunch of combos. +1 intake / -1 exhaust was the best I got so far. I tryed the -4/-1 people suggest but my spool sucked and my top end didn't gain much.

Advancing the intake really makes the turbo hit hard. You have to be careful once you start advancing it a bunch because it will become more sensitive to preignition.






the only thing i didnt get to try was +4 -1 , on the exhaust area... maybe once i get my forge WGA i will!
but i never seem cams be so indepent with cam gears


Yea I tried a bunch of combos. +1 intake / -1 exhaust was the best I got so far. I tryed the -4/-1 people suggest but my spool sucked and my top end didn't gain much.

Advancing the intake really makes the turbo hit hard. You have to be careful once you start advancing it a bunch because it will become more sensitive to preignition.

advancing intake makes turbo hit hard. retarding intake makes turbo hit less but gives capacity for more top end.

retarding exhaust gives more capacity for top end.

increasing overlap makes for more top end and thumpy idle.

so armed with this info goku can try to make more power... but i'll confirm the cam specs when i find them.

[trinydex]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?p=3168916#post3168916

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?p=3169890#post3169890

preliminary answers

[earlyapex]

advancing intake makes turbo hit hard. retarding intake makes turbo hit less but gives capacity for more top end.

retarding exhaust gives more capacity for top end.

increasing overlap makes for more top end and thumpy idle.

so armed with this info goku can try to make more power... but i'll confirm the cam specs when i find them.


Yup, even at +1/-1 my idle was pretty lumpy. I have since tuned most of it out with ECU+. It came back now that I am running straight ECUflash, changing my idle to 945rpm helped a bunch and I will continue to mess with with ECUflash a bit to smooth it out even more.

I am going to try and play around with the cam gears a little bit more too.

[trinydex]

wait... how come it came back with ecuflash? can't you add timing at idle with ecuflash? are you not gonna run ecu+ anymore? cuz you could always piggyback the timing advance there right? and the ecu+ has cool stuff like the low end maf lock and stuff...

[trinydex]

advancing intake makes turbo hit hard. retarding intake makes turbo hit less but gives capacity for more top end.

retarding exhaust gives more capacity for top end.

increasing overlap makes for more top end and thumpy idle.

so armed with this info goku can try to make more power... but i'll confirm the cam specs when i find them.


Yup, even at +1/-1 my idle was pretty lumpy. I have since tuned most of it out with ECU+. It came back now that I am running straight ECUflash, changing my idle to 945rpm helped a bunch and I will continue to mess with with ECUflash a bit to smooth it out even more.

I am going to try and play around with the cam gears a little bit more too.



heh... you're tightening the lsa so of course it's gonna be lumpy... you're running more overlap than the base 272s.

[earlyapex]

wait... how come it came back with ecuflash? can't you add timing at idle with ecuflash? are you not gonna run ecu+ anymore? cuz you could always piggyback the timing advance there right? and the ecu+ has cool stuff like the low end maf lock and stuff...


I didn't mind the lumpiness. I just didn't want the car to attract anymore attention then it does already at stoplights. ;)

I run ECU+ now only for logging and knock protection. Yes, I can add timing at idle with the ECU+ like I used to but I am trying to do it with the flash. Still messing with it.

[earlyapex]

oh ok... cool... i thot you made a final call already hahaha... update the norcalevo thread!!!


I'm not on Norcalevo anymore.

I did add this to socalevo however: http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=23825.0

[gt40]

you think you dont want to attract attention , imagine if you heard my car.. fricking thing sounds like a V8 LOL


If you had a real ems, you wouldn't have that issue :p You should drive my car with 280's- idles like stock almost

[trinydex]

omg... didn't you just buy xede hahahaha... that is curious though, how were you going to get the juns to idle on an xede?

[trinydex]

what valvetrain are you running?

[GokuSSJ4]

what valvetrain are you running?

Crower... it should be good enough to support the lift on the cams

[Miss Evo8]

you think you dont want to attract attention , imagine if you heard my car.. fricking thing sounds like a V8 LOL


If you had a real ems, you wouldn't have that issue :p* You should drive my car with 280's- idles like stock almost


it doesn't matter...goku would change the EMS in a week anyways...just like his cams! :roll:

[GokuSSJ4]

you think you dont want to attract attention , imagine if you heard my car.. fricking thing sounds like a V8 LOL


If you had a real ems, you wouldn't have that issue :p* You should drive my car with 280's- idles like stock almost


it doesn't matter...goku would change the EMS in a week anyways...just like his cams! :roll:


I'm not the one that sold an EMS without even getting the damn thing install. An for the record, you have technically had more EMS then i have...LOL