Aircraft Ticket

[Blaze]

Anyone have some factual information on tickets from airplanes before I head to Boarders?

I'm looking for the process in which they spot/pace/site you and what general requirements they need in court.

I've heard that planes use radar. I've also heard they pace you.
I know they coordinate with a stationary ground unit.
I've heard both officers need to appear in court and I'm assuming both would need to write seperate TBDs?

Any information would be helpful. I'll post up the new TBD and one my sister just won for a failure to stop soon.

Blaze

[Terry S]

Anyone have some factual information on tickets from airplanes before I head to Boarders?

I'm looking for the process in which they spot/pace/site you and what general requirements they need in court.

I've heard that planes use radar. I've also heard they pace you.
I know they coordinate with a stationary ground unit.
I've heard both officers need to appear in court and I'm assuming both would need to write seperate TBDs?

Any information would be helpful. I'll post up the new TBD and one my sister just won for a failure to stop soon.

Blaze


They clock you traveling between two points they can see on the road. Typically its a big white line painted accross the highway and another white line a mile down the road. They calculate your MPH using the amount of time you took to go from one line to the other.

I have heard that you can *possibly* argue that the ground unit that issues your ticket wasn't the officer that actually observed you breaking the speed limit and that the officer in the plane "should" be the one to issue the citation. I'm guessing this doesn't work anymore, but a guy here at my work swears he used to use this defense for Auto club members like 10 years ago and win.

Terry S

[kimletrim]

Generally no different than a single officer using radar. *But with the use of aircraft, the prosecution must account for multiple foundational requirements. *Specifically, you will need to address not only the operator's knowledge and experience with the radar, but also with the aircraft's knowledge and experience with the equipment (or person) in the aircraft. *There would probably be an issue with hearsay evidence since the airplane and patrol vehicle would be communicating with each other, making out of court statements.

Just deal with the airplane separately just as you would with the patrol vehicle and the radar gun.

[[p]dOG.]

The airplane in order to judge your speed will mostlikely compare the airplane speed in Knots (nautical miles per hour) to MPH's. Then radio to the ground unit. In order to fight it you can use the same tactic used when fighting a radar gun. You ask for calibration papers on the radar gun. You can ask for calibration paper work for the aircraft knot meter (baiscally a spedo for the airplane) Also if the pilot has a tail wind and is using his knots meter he would be getting false representation of your actual speed for he would be traveling over the ground faster than what he is indicating. His ground speed by a gps unit would be the only way to measure accurately. If he had a headwind his ground speed would be slow but his indicated speed would be fast. To best fight it you should ask for calibration paper work, outside air temperature the aircraft was flying in, wind speed, altitude the pilot was flying at. All weather information is needed to determine his actual speed over the ground if he is not using a gps to measure. It is not likely that he can measure to within 5 mph's and be accurate.

[kcross]

ive never heard of a case in which an airplane paces someone. they do what terry s said. they use two marked points on the road and a stopwatch and use that to calculate your average speed over a known distance. but here is what you need to know...

40801. No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.

40802. (a) A "speed trap" is either of the following:
(1) A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.

40803. (a) No evidence as to the speed of a vehicle upon a highway shall be admitted in any court upon the trial of any person in any prosecution under this code upon a charge involving the speed of a vehicle when the evidence is based upon or obtained from or by the maintenance or use of a speedtrap.

40804. (a) In any prosecution under this code upon a charge involving the speed of a vehicle, any officer or other person shall be incompetent as a witness if the testimony is based upon or obtained from or by the maintenance or use of a speed trap.

40805. Every court shall be without jurisdiction to render a judgment of conviction against any person for a violation of this code involving the speed of a vehicle if the court admits any evidence or testimony secured in violation of, or which is inadmissible under this article.

[Terry S]

ive never heard of a case in which an airplane paces someone. they do what terry s said. they use two marked points on the road and a stopwatch and use that to calculate your average speed over a known distance. but here is what you need to know...

40801. No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.

40802. (a) A "speed trap" is either of the following:
(1) A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.


Is there a definition section that specifically exempts aircraft patrols from the definition of "speed trap" though? Or are there specific statutes that permit aircraft patrols for the purpose of speed enforcement?

Terry S

[kcross]

it give pays no reguard to the manner in which the officer is being transported. it doesnt matter if there is a satallite, an airplane, a helicopter, or just a guy standing on a hill. if they mark spots on the road and use timing to obtain an estimated speed its inadmissible.

[[p]dOG.]

I'm going to talk to LB police pilot later this afternoon and i'm going to ask how they excatly determine speed from an aircraft.

[Terry S]

dOG. ]
I'm going to talk to LB police pilot later this afternoon and i'm going to ask how they excatly determine speed from an aircraft.


100% sure that they use the two lines method. Not sure if thats how all of them do it though.

Terry S

[kcross]

thats the only way its possible. look if anyone here took some math...

rate = distance
time

[[p]dOG.]

Spoke to my guy and yes they use the lines on the road to determine speed and they most likely took video of your vehicle did they send you a ticket throught the mail???

[909Evo]

Just an FYI too, I saw someone said something about heresay.

The only time in a court of law that heresay is admissable is when it is given by an officer representing another officer. I.E. In a murder investigation, the initial responder, or the people securing the crime scene would not be the people in trial, that would be the detectives job, so naturally the detective would have to report on what the first responders actions were. Like I said though, I believe ONLY peace officers are afforded the right to heresay.

[thisxguy]

i see the warning signs for radar by aircraft or whatever...but has anyone actually gotten one?

[909Evo]

Yes, there was this big hoopla ahwhile back because a dude on a crotch rocket got a ticket by an aircraft. It was something ridiculous like 204 in a 65 or something. It was on the cover of all the rider magazines hyped as the fastest ticket ever or something to that extent.

[thisxguy]

dang. i guess i wasnt really paying attention around the time because i've never heard of anyone who actaully got one. haha

but deng..204. did he contest and win?

[EVO Neil]

They use aircraft, specifically I've seen small planes on several occasions, on the 241-Toll Road, heading out from the 91 into Orange County. I always look for a circling plane now when cresting the big hill at the Toll Plaza. I've spotted it several times and always they have multiple Highway Patrol cars at the bottom of the hill. Be careful out there. I don't remember the V1 going off so I don't think they are using radar or lasar.

[thisxguy]

do the airplanes only partol the areas where the signs are...or do they go wherever they want?

is the V1 the best detector?
i've seen people that like that one passport 8500 or whatever better...i'm thinking about buying one. i was more toward the v1 though.

[EVO Neil]

do the airplanes only partol the areas where the signs are...or do they go wherever they want?

is the V1 the best detector?
i've seen people that like that one passport 8500 or whatever better...i'm thinking about buying one. i was more toward the v1 though.


I swear by my V1 and wouldn't even consider another brand.

[Macky]

i would get a V1 too if i had the extra $$$

[thisxguy]

i remember that v1 had a latest version come out a while ago. is that the one you have? how much are they?
...sorry to jack the thread...

gay airplane tickets. haha

[BlueBooster]

This thread has got me most curious. I was driving on the 241 south on Saturday and had just crested the big hill when I spotted the airplane circling around towards the bottom. In the amount of time it took me to go down the hill at a safe and reasonable speed, he made about 3 loops. There are no markings on along the shoulder for him to take speed readings. What this tells me is that they simply gage the speed of your vehicle in relation to others. This would be similar to pacing and we all know how accurate that is... Either that or they use radar or laser to tag you from the plane. If thats the case they have some serious number crunching to get a proper speed you were travling.

On a side note, watch that hill on the 241 for planes with really long wing spans just going in circles. I gauranty there will be a boat load of CHP at the bottom. Thay had about 6 cars pulled over and about 4 other CHP cars sitting there ready to go at a moments notice. I think the people around me appreciated my attentiveness to the aircrafts presence as no one was pulled over. :knuppel2: :police: :knuppel2:

[Chris in SD]

kcross, Terry S, etc. are correct. It is a measure of your speed over a marked, known distance (usually 1 mile, sometimes 2 in more rural areas). They do it by flying parallel to your route, time is measured on a stopwatch, and the observer will ID the car through binoculars. Those are the ways they counter the "It wasn't me" defense. Good luck...

[909Evo]

dang. i guess i wasnt really paying attention around the time because i've never heard of anyone who actaully got one. haha

but deng..204. did he contest and win?


Sorry i forgot to reply bro..

From what I remember, sport rider magazine footed the bill for his lawyer. The lawyers defense was like a top speed run the guys bike. I believe it was a ninja12r, and from what I remember that bike was GEAR limited at like 198. Even though the bike had the potential to do 204, it didn't have the gearing, and the ticket was thrown out because it just wasn't possible for his bike to do 204. The lawyer also fought that it was too difficult for a pilot to properly operate a plan, and to operate a stopwatch on the EXACT time the vehicle crosses the points. Fractions of a second make a huge difference in r*t equations.

[BMan]

it give pays no reguard to the manner in which the officer is being transported. it doesnt matter if there is a satallite, an airplane, a helicopter, or just a guy standing on a hill. if they mark spots on the road and use timing to obtain an estimated speed its inadmissible.

Not true...
It says markings on road to be used as speed indicators.
I got a ticket on my Ninja on the 5 freeway and both officers showed up. The air support said he used the mile-posts to determine my speed and provided his certificates of completion and last test results.
Mile posts are not placed there for speed traps and a CHP cirtificate will nail you if they both show up and he has a recent certificate.
Good luck.