EVOscan logging.....91 oct vs 100 oct and knocksums

[BHCevo]

So I finally got around to doing some data logging of my custom reflash. I've never
been all that happy with either the dyno results (305 whp, 285 wtq on 91) or how it performed
on the street.

'03 evo: TBE, hiflow cat, cams, MBC, short ram intake, 21 psi boost.

Here are some 3rd gear "pulls" on 91 oct.
*
RPM* * TPS* ** * Timing Load AFR
* * * * * ** * Knock
5000 100 12 07 220.794 11.4
5156 100 12 05 219.300 11.2
5343 100 11 06 218.625 11.0
5531 100 11 08 219.934 11.0
5750 100 11 09 214.363 10.9
5875 100 15 10 210.714 10.9
6031 100 15 11 210.587 10.9
6156 100 15 11 209.793 10.8
6343 100 17 12 207.816 11.0

and

RPM TPS * ** TIM * LOAD ** AFR
* * * * * * * *KNOCK
4937 100 00 09 215.991 11.8
5187 100 04 08 220.045 10.9
5531 100 10 09 216.059 11.1
5781 100 10 11 214.131 11.0
6062 100 09 12 208.617 10.9
6250 100 14 13 208.361 10.9

I didn't particularly care for those knocksums so my next step was to fuel up with 100 oct and
repeat.

Here are some 100 oct results.

RPM TPS * * TIME * LOAD * AFR
* * * * * * * KNOCK
5187 100 0 10 215.913 11.7
5312 100 0 10 219.911 10.9
5468 100 0 12 213.628 10.8
5625 100 0 14 211.505 11.1
5750 100 0 14 214.363 11.0
5937 100 0 16 209.399 11.0


RPM TPS * * TIME *Load *AFR
* * * * * * * Knock
3750 100 0 11 181.494 missing
4343 100 0 11 231.944 "
5437 100 0 14 223.726 "
6125 100 0 19 216.113 "

I should point out that the knocksums drop to zero using 100 oct.

The car definitely pulls much harder with 100 oct. No surprise considering the much more
aggressive timing.

All data taken at 3rd gear and 20-21psi boost. AFR measured using zeitronix wideband. Knock and timing measured using evoscan software and tactrix cable. Load calculated using load = AirFlow*852/RPM. Reflash has both the high and low octane maps equal to each other for both fuel and ignition timing. Ignition timing maps is precisely what the above data shows for 100 octane at the given rpm and load.

Looks like its retune time for 91 oct. Those knocksums just floored me.

Sadly, neither the AFRs or the timing seem all that agressive to me. In order to reduce knock I'll make even less power, and I'm sad about my torque as it is. Any advice is appreciated.

[trinydex]

it finally came out? and it works!?!? yahoo??

[BHCevo]

Works like a charm. Check out http://www.limitless.co.nz/EvoScan/

You need to pay $15 or $35 or whatever hes charging. Paypal compatible and you get the serial and
installs right away.

You'll need a tactrix cable and also need to have the ecuflash software isntalled for various drivers and libraries and whatnot. You might also need to install .NET 1.1 which is free from microsoft. The latest relase is .NET 2.0 but that didn't work from me so search through the archive till you find the 1.1 2004 release, its about 20 megs.

You will also need a laptop.

The output format right now is just to text files (.csv) so you'll need excel or something similar to plot/graph/examine the data. I use a program called Igor Pro which is basically excel for scientific computation, but its fairly expensive so I don't necessarily recommend it.

I think the next release will be zeitronix compatible. For now you'll have to run the Zt logger simultaneously to get wideband data....this works fine on my laptop. Then I use my graphing program to find the same regions from both logs and figure out the AFRs that way. The tactrix cable goes into a usb port and the zt logger uses my 9 pin serial port.

Its no ECU+ but for $100 for cable and the logging software (flashing software is free) you absolutely cant beat the value. Enormous functionality....evoscan is fast enough to be useful (unlike some "loggers" i've used).

You'll need to know how to use excel at a basic engineering level though....plot the data on top of each other, scale the axis, find the regions of interest, open the data in tabular format at the identified region of interest, then isolate the discrete data as shown above in my original post.

Plus, I finally have the tools I need to asses the quality of my reflash and _make changes_ on my own. Booyah.

[trinydex]

yeah it appears that you're running into some knock... if you ask brian (earlyapex) he'll tell you that 91 octane nets you no more than 18* of timing at the top of your rpms.

few questions. are you getting timing subtracted? it should be about -3.5 degrees for every 10 knock events and the knock sums are generally in the over 10 not a good thing. so you should take that into consideration. it would seem that it's ok for you to hit 18 at peak with about 21 psi.

this totally sounds like the repeated dynoflash scenario that people are now finding to be the horrid truth once they open up the can of shit that al seals in the freshness on for you inside the ecu. hope you didn't take a big wiff, sounds like you don't like the smell :\

last question, could you list your mods. cuz i know scot has told me repeatedly (to his dismay) that with a stage 1 you can expect about 20 or a scant bit more degrees of timing at the top of the rpms. this of course includes the two basic modifications of a fuel pump and injectors though. i know throwing fuel at it only helps for so long...

[BHCevo]

I'm definitely getting timing pulled on 91. The timing should be what is shown on the 100 oct runs. This is confirmed by examining the ignition maps.

Its pulling up to 8 degrees of timing so it looks like so the 3.5 degrees per 10 knock seems about right.

Go-Fast Mods are:
TBE
hi-flow cat
O2 housing
264/272 BC cams
cam gears -2 intake -3 exhaust
MBC
AEM short ram intake
255 walbro fuel pump
custom reflash from harman motive.

The reflash is almost 2 years old and the car has seen lots of maintenance and wear and tear since then. To be fair I did ask for an agressive tune but the car never made the wtq it should so this is why i'm taking the matter into my own hands.

[tabio42]

Holy shit are those knock sum numbers accurate? I\'ve been trying to keep mine down to 1 or 2 at the most. How much knock can you see before it is unsafe? Does your car have loud audible knock?

Trinydex- can you clarify what the 3.5 degrees pulled per 10 knock events means? Like if I get a knock sum of 1 at 4400 and another 1 at 4500 is that conisdered 2 knock events?

[BHCevo]

There is no audible knock coming from my engine. Not audible to me anyway.

I\'m pretty sure that the occasional knocksum of 1 or 2 is normal. This doesn\'t mean that you can\'t or shouldn\'t tune it out anyway, but its far from anything that could possibly damage your engine.

There\'s another thread where scott recommends keeping your knocksum below 20, and below 5 or 10 if possible. He said the ecu transitions completely to the low octane maps at knocksum = 25.

One can infer from this that knocksum = 1 or 2 is basically equal to knocksum = 0.

In my own experience, the car accelerates more smoothly and more repeatedly with a knocksum = 0 tune.
This may have had something to do with the fact that my high and low octane maps were set equal.

Its just a guess, but I think CA tuners are more willing to accept knocksum values > 0, as long as it gives good power, because 91 octane is such crappy fuel for a knocksum = 0 tune.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me....except for the fact that even my modest knocksums noticeably sap my torque and even worse make the power delivery erratic at open throttle. This is REALLY irritating. But every car is different, and if my particular car wants a knocksum = 0 tune or if my driving preference is such then so be it.

I think what triny meant is that knocksum = knock events. So 10 knock events would mean knocksum = 10.
So the example you give is incorrect.

[tabio42]

Cool thanks. My timing numbers are pretty low overall. I\'m in the 320 load column at 23psi (spike) and 280 at 20 where it settles down. It is weird that the stock turbo tapers that much even with a stroker.

[trinydex]

sorry for the ambiguous language, it would prolly be more technical and semantical to formally label a knock event as a knock sum of 10 which translates into some amount of voltage picked up by some frequencies in the knock sensor.

that would then trigger the ecu to pull 3.5 degrees. but i\'ll stick to the vague muddy language cuz defining such things is only gonna confuse people.

also bh, your torque sucks because your cams are retarded. in order to get a good clean torque number you\'d most likely be better off running either 0/0 or +1/-1. i realize you are running staggered but the fact is that with the intake cam being shorter in breath you need to advance it more to realize a good torque number.

this is also why i don\'t agree wtih running staggered. it\'s very difficult to get the right combo because i see what you\'re trying to do, you want to get the top end wtih a longer duration exhaust but you want a good torque number from the intake cam. however you gone and screwed yourself as soon as you retarded the assembly because now your intake valve closes too late in the combustion cycle. since you\'re closing the intake valve so late you\'re running into the case where you\'re losing some cylinder pressure but you clean out the cylinder very well... this cleaning of the cylinder makes power but the loss of cylinder pressure loses power. your net result is now what you have seen on the dyno.

i suggest you make some corrections to the cam gear settings.

[BHCevo]

Good advice triny. You rock. 0/0 here I come.

For what its worth, back when I had the cams installed I didn\\\'t know crap about jack so I just took my tuners advice on cams, as well as his
advice on cam gear settings. He originally had me set at -5 intake/ -1 exhaust....which didn\\\'t give me \\\"good\\\" torque until 6k or so. hehe.

Changing to -2/-3 really has helped. Advancing even more has been one of the things I was considering. Thanks for pointing this out
and explaining the physics in better detail.

Hahah....of course that was my plan with the staggered cams. Just made a wee error along the way.

[BHCevo]

Come to think of it I still might not know crap about jack.

[trinydex]

haha np, let's keep the cars gettin' better and not continuing to toon them to their doom.

[BHCevo]

Dialed in my cam gears to 0/0 tonite and did some driving. Awesome results!

I've got more torque and sooner torque. I think I lost just a tad bit at the top end which is what you would expect, but the tradeoff is clearly worth it.

Obviously I still need to dial in my tune but the street driveability and power delivery are quite improved.

Man, I should have done this months ago. Thanks Triny.

[BHCevo]

Crap....I really should look at other possible cam gear settings like +1/-1, 0/-1, 0/-2. And I need a decent tune for each one!

Awww man......This is gonna take FOREVER!

[tabio42]

How much did it affect your tune when you zeroed the cams?

[BHCevo]

Good question. I'm still studying the before and after logs, none of which were under otherwise identical conditions. It looks
like the effect was small.

In any case the tune was in transition prior to the cam change so it needed to be improved anyway.

I've heard that to really see big cam gear timing improvements you need to tweak the tune for different cam gear timings.

Is this true in other peoples experience here?

[earlyapex]

Yes you should tune for cam gear changes. espically big changes like you did. I would also suggest trying +1/-1. Nice meaty powerband with little negative effect up top.

[BHCevo]

Well I threw more fuel at my the relevant WOT load columns and now the car pulls like a raped ape. The afrs dropped to 11.0 from 11.3 or so.
The knocksums aren't quite zero so I think I'll add some more fuel, then start refining my conservative timing.

Man this tuning stuff really works. I got two questions:

1) How do I know if I'm exceeding the max/safe duty cycle of my injectors? Right now I got stock injectors and have a 255 walbro fuel pump.

2) When I got WOT at higher revs it takes a while for my afrs to drop from super lean (13,14 or higher) to 11.0. Can I fix this? Is throttle enrichment the right place to look? I ask because for typical times I spend on WOT on the street its taking way too long to get to the right afr. By the time I let up on the throttle the afrs have barely stabilized and I'm just starting to pull hard.


-Peter

[tabio42]

for question 2-
Is there a boost spike occuring? It could be that the AFR's are lean at the higher boost spike then they get better when it comes down.

[BHCevo]

good point. There's a completely separate lean peak associated with the boost spike.

Hmmm....examining my logs more closely it looks like my spool is taking longer than I thought. My calc load (airflow/revs) closely
follows my boost level, so looking at its trace is what I do since i dont log boost directly.

Thanks Tabio

[gofaster87]

Well I threw more fuel at my the relevant WOT load columns and now the car pulls like a raped ape. The afrs dropped to 11.0 from 11.3 or so.
The knocksums aren't quite zero so I think I'll add some more fuel, then start refining my conservative timing.



Im trying to understand why you think knock should be at 0. Ive never looked at a log of a tuned car and seen zero knock even on cars pushing over 600whp. Knock is always there and its not bad when some is present. If you doubt this you can try asking scot gray he will confirm the same.

[BHCevo]

I'm aware of this line of thinking.

Right now I'm tuning on a about 93 oct, having mixed a quarter tank of 100 oct with 91. So getting a zero knocksum tune should be about right for when I go to 91. I'll check and refine my tune then as necessary of course.

In any case, there clearly is a noticeable impact on my car when the knocksum starts exceeding 5. Because the actual knocksum is statistically repeatable but definitely has some variation on the same tune, I need to give myself some buffer so that even when the knocksum spikes high I am not unduly impacting power.

I speak from personal experience of examining and correlating log performance with driving experience.

I have no doubt that if there are errors in my line of thinking I will discover them as I continue to examine the relationship between my driving experience and what the logs tell me.

[nj1266]

Well I threw more fuel at my the relevant WOT load columns and now the car pulls like a raped ape. The afrs dropped to 11.0 from 11.3 or so.
The knocksums aren't quite zero so I think I'll add some more fuel, then start refining my conservative timing.



Im trying to understand why you think knock should be at 0. Ive never looked at a log of a tuned car and seen zero knock even on cars pushing over 600whp. Knock is always there and its not bad when some is present. If you doubt this you can try asking scot gray he will confirm the same.




Well I threw more fuel at my the relevant WOT load columns and now the car pulls like a raped ape. The afrs dropped to 11.0 from 11.3 or so.
The knocksums aren't quite zero so I think I'll add some more fuel, then start refining my conservative timing.



Im trying to understand why you think knock should be at 0. Ive never looked at a log of a tuned car and seen zero knock even on cars pushing over 600whp. Knock is always there and its not bad when some is present. If you doubt this you can try asking scot gray he will confirm the same.

I agree with you on this one. But the line of thinking on the Ecuflash forums is that there should be zero knock sum. I do not know where they got this from but it is very prevelant.

Maybe they should read this:

One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/Page_2.php

[BHCevo]

I agree that the optimum tune for a car likely means a tune that gives
small/moderate amounts of knock. And by optimum I mean max power with decent drivability.

You seem to think that I'm stating in general that knocksum = 0 gives the optimum tune, period.

I said exactly what I meant to say...that at this time on this car for this week on this fuel for this next set of tuning exercises I am gonna add some fuel to lower my knocksums to about zero.

I already shared some of my thought on why I'm trying to achieve knocksum = 0 in this specific situation.

Please try not to assume I'm saying anything else.

Please give this thread on topic.... advice or constructive criticisms about my tuning efforts.

[trinydex]

Dialed in my cam gears to 0/0 tonite and did some driving. Awesome results!

I've got more torque and sooner torque. I think I lost just a tad bit at the top end which is what you would expect, but the tradeoff is clearly worth it.

Obviously I still need to dial in my tune but the street driveability and power delivery are quite improved.

Man, I should have done this months ago. Thanks Triny.
if you want your top end back and wanna keep the thumpy low end then you either retard the exhaust or you match up the cams straight and run +1-1

[trinydex]

good point. There's a completely separate lean peak associated with the boost spike.

Hmmm....examining my logs more closely it looks like my spool is taking longer than I thought. My calc load (airflow/revs) closely
follows my boost level, so looking at its trace is what I do since i dont log boost directly.

Thanks Tabio
be wary of this type of boost "calculating" best way is to get yourself a map sensor. you're logging and doing everything else with great fervor, no need to skimp when the right tools are readily accessible.

[BHCevo]

You're right Triny. I really should get the boost sensor on my zeitronix since im logging my zeitronix wideband anyway.

I'll try retarding my exhaust some see how my top end is.

I need to find a semi-private road where I can rip off some pulls.

[leaveit2bevo]

Dialed in my cam gears to 0/0 tonite and did some driving. Awesome results!

I've got more torque and sooner torque. I think I lost just a tad bit at the top end which is what you would expect, but the tradeoff is clearly worth it.

Obviously I still need to dial in my tune but the street driveability and power delivery are quite improved.

Man, I should have done this months ago. Thanks Triny.
if you want your top end back and wanna keep the thumpy low end then you either retard the exhaust or you match up the cams straight and run +1-1


go with straight 272s and try -3-3

[trinydex]

uhm... he just came from a retarded setup... his spool and torque sucked ass. why are you recommending drag race settings?

[tabio42]

Everything works. To a certain degree and to meet a certain critereon.

Any new logs with the cam changes and whathaveyou?

[BHCevo]

The upshot of all my tuning is that my car is running better and pulling harder than it ever has before. This is after changing the
cams to 0/0, adding some fuel, subtracting some timing and detuning the low octane maps significantly. Previoiusly, the high and low octane maps were set equal.

The performance on this tune is very sensitive to the boost its running. Around 1.35 bar seems to be its sweet spot. Anything above
1.4 bar and its not pulling as hard and knocking too much. This is on 91.

Right now I'm not logging boost directly (I have an MBC with in-cabin controller and an EL1 apexi boost gauge), so I need to add this capability so I can better account for the boost sensitivity of the tune.

I'm much happier with the way the car runs but I still think I should be able to get more out of it. 1.35 bar is about stock boost. AFRs are 11.0 with no knock and timing climbs from 4 deg at 3500 to 20 at 7500. I should be able to find a good tune at closer to 1.5 bar boost, but so far the only thing that helps is putting in 100 octane.

I wouldn't think I need richer than 11.0 or less timing to run 1.5 bar, but maybe I do.

I'll post a couple of representative logs when I get home. I'll also see about posting jpegs of my fuel and ignition maps.

[BHCevo]

Hey Tabio,

Earlier you said that you were on the 320 to 280 load columns on the stock turbo. Is this correct? What boost you running?

I'm on the stock '03 turbo at 1.3-1.5 bar and I could swear I'm between 200 and 240 load, comparing my log to the timing tables. This also agrees well with the usual evoscan load approximation.

Anway, let me know.

[tabio42]

The 320 is at 22psi with a stroker motor. It settles down to about 19 with the MBC which is 280 load for me. I'm trying to use my EBC to keep me at 22 all the way across.

[BHCevo]

Ah... a stroker!

You lucky dog you.

Is it a 2.4? 2.3?

So you'er running 20 to 15% more displacement so the load (to first order) should be great by 20% to 15%.

So 220 plus 20% is....uh....264 or so. Huh...a little short. But I guess thats why its only to first order hehe.

Anyway...thanks for clearing that up.

[tabio42]

It is actually 2.2 and change. But it likes to consume large amounts of air.

My problems are
1. I don't know what to do with my cam timing.
2. I can't get out of negative timing advance at boost peak with 0 knock sum.
I think 2 can be solved as soon as I get my boost squared away. After that I'll re-readjust the load tables to actually show 320. Now it goes up to 300 and I was using extrapolation to do my timing above that :) kinda lazy. Then I can keep giving it timing until I can find the point it goes from like 1-2 counts of knock to like 5-10. Because I'm thinking the motor might just make more noise in that range than stock.

[nj1266]

The upshot of all my tuning is that my car is running better and pulling harder than it ever has before. This is after changing the
cams to 0/0, adding some fuel, subtracting some timing and detuning the low octane maps significantly. Previoiusly, the high and low octane maps were set equal.
Let me guess it is a dynoflash base map that was e-mailed to you by Al. I still do not understand why he makes the high octane and low octane maps the same. I fail to see the logic since the ECU will still pull timing even if you made the low and high octane maps the same.

The performance on this tune is very sensitive to the boost its running. Around 1.35 bar seems to be its sweet spot. Anything above 1.4 bar and its not pulling as hard and knocking too much. This is on 91.
It is possible that you are running too much timing. Perhaps Al comes from the tuning school where you advance the timing as much as possible and keep a very conservative AFR @ 11:1. It could also be the 91 pisstane gas. Since I started mixing 100 and 91 to get 93 my car has been very smooth with ZERO spikes in the AFR like the ones I used to get with 91 pisstane. The Evo was designed to run on 93 octane. It will only cost you $10 more per tank than 91 pisstane. It is worth it, IMO.

I'm much happier with the way the car runs but I still think I should be able to get more out of it. 1.35 bar is about stock boost. AFRs are 11.0 with no knock and timing climbs from 4 deg at 3500 to 20 at 7500. I should be able to find a good tune at closer to 1.5 bar boost, but so far the only thing that helps is putting in 100 octane.
Try backing off the timing some more especially at peak torque/boost and upping the boost a bit and see if it knocks. IIRC, Al sets timing at peak/torque/boost at 8*. That is more than the Evo 8 stock map runs at 3500-3700 rpm.

I wouldn't think I need richer than 11.0 or less timing to run 1.5 bar, but maybe I do.
Looking at my Xede maps, Alfred @ TT increased the boost by 2 psi, leaned out the AFR to 11:1 and pulled timing. Shiv does the same thing but he goes way lean on the AFR.

I'll post a couple of representative logs when I get home. I'll also see about posting jpegs of my fuel and ignition maps.
I would like to see your timing map. I like to tune my car following the MTBT (minimum timing for best torque) approach.

[trinydex]

running 93 octane only works if you're around 100 octane gas stations all the time... and it's not always extra 10 dollars per tank...

the fact is that a tune is suppose to work in the worst conditions... the evo can be "made" to run at any octane, it's a matter of TUNING.

there isn't any excuse for a tune that is not "working" on a certain octane that is most available. it's just a bad tune.

[nj1266]

running 93 octane only works if you're around 100 octane gas stations all the time... and it's not always extra 10 dollars per tank...

the fact is that a tune is suppose to work in the worst conditions... the evo can be "made" to run at any octane, it's a matter of TUNING.

there isn't any excuse for a tune that is not "working" on a certain octane that is most available. it's just a bad tune.

If you read the owner's manual it says to use 93 octane gas on the Evo and use 91 only if 93 is not available. Well, 93 is available for me and it olny costs me $10 more per tank. I fill 9.8ish gallons of 91 and 3.5 gallons of 100. All fill ups are done at 76 stations. It comes out to $54 per tank. When I used 91 only, the cost was $44 per tank. It was $10 more FOR ME. I fill up @ Mike's 76 in Fullerton. They have 100 and 91 on the same pump. Very easy to do.

The tune on the 91 was excellent. The spikes were NOT misfires, but an occasional blown spark. The ran like a scolded monkey. I only noticed the spike because I log my AFR daily. I do it for fun and do a WOT 3rd gear once a day so might as well log it with the Innovate since it is permanently installed in my car. I just press a button on the XD-16 and I am logging.

After I switched to 93 octane the spike disappeared. I will never go back to 91 pisstane gas. The Evo was designed to run on 93 octane. Running it on 91 pisstane is second best.

[gofaster87]

I guess you cant drive very far unless you carry a couple extra jugs of 100 with you. 100 octane is very limited. By the way you need to do at least 3 wot runs in sequence to get proper readings.

[nj1266]

I guess you cant drive very far unless you carry a couple extra jugs of 100 with you. 100 octane is very limited. By the way you need to do at least 3 wot runs in sequence to get proper readings.

I am lucky since Mike's 76 is right next to my work in Fullerton. And there is another 76 in Huntington Beach that is about 15-20 minutes away from wher I live. I know about the three WOT runs, but when you live in an urban area, you take what is available.

[BHCevo]

Here's a third gear log from a few days ago. rpms is divided by 100 so 46.2 means 4620 rpms.
timing knock tps rpm afr
09 0 100 46.2 12.9
10 0 100 47.5 11.1
10 0 100 47.8 10.9
11 0 100 49.0 10.6
11 0 100 49.6 10.7
10 1 100 50.3 10.7
10 1 100 51.2 10.8
11 1 100 51.8 10.9
09 8 100 52.8
10 7 100 53.7
10 7 100 54.0
10 7 100 54.6
09 7 100 55.3
10 7 100 55.9
10 7 100 56.8
10 7 100 57.1
10 7 100 58.1
12 6 100 58.7
12 6 100 59.3
13 6 100 60.0
13 6 100 60.6 10.8
14 6 100 61.2
14 6 100 62.1
14 6 100 62.5
14 6 100 63.1
15 5 100 63.7
15 5 100 64.3
15 5 100 65.3
15 5 100 65.6 10.9
17 5 100 66.2
17 5 100 67.1
17 5 100 67.5
17 5 100 67.8
18 5 100 68.7 10.9

I've added a jpeg of the timing maps I was on during this log. I believe I was on load columns 200 or 220.Â* during the above log.
The lower map with the obscured title is the low octane ignition map.

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-9584

[earlyapex]

Too much timing. Espically 4500 to 6000. Bring it all down by 1 to 2 and see how it goes.

[BHCevo]

thanks earlyapex. I'll try that.

Believe it or not my original tune's timing was even higher heh.

[gofaster87]

How is that timing too high?
Shit I peak at 19/20

Runs great

Most of the guys I know tune the timing that high especially at that afr. Like I mentioned before some knock is normal and if youre at 0 the whole time your missing some timing in there. Knock decays slowly
so it's really only knocking at the very beginning where it spikes to whatever number, then falls off from there

[earlyapex]

How is that timing too high?
Shit I peak at 19/20

Runs great

Most of the guys I know tune the timing that high especially at that afr


I didn't say anything about his peak timing. Did you actually look at his timing, his log, and what timing he has in his ecu map? Its pulling timing, because his map doesnt show 09/10/11/09/10/11/09/10 from 4500 to 6000 in the load path his car is running in. You can also tell because the car should not hover around a single timing like that. It's flatlining it because its knocking and doesnt want to advance it until the knock subsides.

I mearly suggest he try beinging the timing down a little to see if it helps. Your car isn't his car, and neither is my car. I run more timing then that as well.

[BHCevo]

Yeah...not only is the knock pulling timing but you can feel it with the butt dyno too.

I could care less about the knocksum if it felt great on the road but such is not the case.

I really wish I could run 10.9 afr with that kind of timing at 1.4 bar boost on 91....evidently everyone else on these boards can :(

I dunno....mebbe at 50k miles my engine is just getting tired. Or my turbo is losing efficiency.

What is the lifespan of a turbo? Does it degrade in a progressive fashion over the lifespan?

[gofaster87]

How is that timing too high?
Shit I peak at 19/20

Runs great

Most of the guys I know tune the timing that high especially at that afr


I didn't say anything about his peak timing. Did you actually look at his timing, his log, and what timing he has in his ecu map? Its pulling timing, because his map doesnt show 09/10/11/09/10/11/09/10 from 4500 to 6000 in the load path his car is running in. You can also tell because the car should not hover around a single timing like that. It's flatlining it because its knocking and doesnt want to advance it until the knock subsides.

I mearly suggest he try beinging the timing down a little to see if it helps. Your car isn't his car, and neither is my car. I run more timing then that as well.


Yea I actually noticed that flatlining and forgot to mention something about it. Id actually need some more info from logs to make a better determination.

[gofaster87]

Might the problem be your fuel? Also what are the ambient air temps while your tuning is going on? Sometimes adding in some fuel and adding some timing will allow your motor to cool off and run a bit better.

[earlyapex]

You should really also try to do 2-3 pulls on the same stretch of road.