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View Full Version : the LAST SAFC vs. FLASH THREAD EVER



trinydex
11-04-2006, 05:12 AM
this topic comes up way too much. this is THE thread everyone will point to from now on. THIS IS THE LAST SAFC VS. FLASH THREAD EVER!

the discussion usually goes something like this:



I xs engennering today for some info on getting the SAFC II and them tuning it. THe guy said its not worth it i should just get the power fc but that is way over my budget!!! What should i do??? :?




Just wanted to see if my thinking is jacked up.
My friend and I got into a debate about which is worth the money more. I am siding with getting a piggyback ecu, and he thinks I should get a flash. His rational is that I spent all this money on good parts I should get it flashed by the pro's. My thought is that I want something tangible for my money. It will be tuned by the pro's, but I have the ability to fine tune after that.

mentally I place flashes as the lowest form of ecu control, piggyback ecu's that control fuel, boost, and timing as second, and a full standalone as third.

So how do you rate them.

best to worst
STANDALONE
PIGGYBACK
FLASH




« on: August 04, 2005, 11:32:43 AM »Â* Â* Â*

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=151722&page=1&pp=15

I've read through everythin that search has pulled up but ... with that said -

Anyone read this article? I've just aquired a SAFC-II and am pieces away from a Dr. Gray Stage 1... But articles like this kind of make me want to change my mind about my SAFC-II route..

I know we have plenty of successful EVO's here w/ the SAFC-II... Any other input? I know a flash + safc-ii to fine tune for race gas is nice and more cost effective than a full AMS EMS + tune($$$) ...

Any comments on input? Its kind of making me want to choose a different routeÂ* Â*Should I just stay on course?

the typical responses BACK IN THE DAY were:



Depends on what your objectives are... XS sells the Power FC which is a STANDALONE, it needs to be tuned by a certified tuner who has the software. A SAFC II is just a fuel adjuster which retains the stock ECU.






THe guy said its not worth it i should just get the power fc but that is way over my budget!!! What should i do??? :?


Unless you know about detonation and what causes it, I would not get the Power FC. It has no safety features with reagards to timing retard. So if on a hot day your car is hesitating and slightly bucking and you dont know you need to pull back the throttle....there's a pretty good possibility you're going to spin a bearing or worse.

The Power FC is nice, rock solid and never really needs to be touched again once it's tuned. I think for a beginner you should stay away from something like that though. Even if it's tuned properly, changes in weather affect the tune your car needs. If you really must have a standalone but dont know how to tune i'd get the EMS because it still has awesome knock retard features.

Get the SAFC over a flash though, few companies are local to provide updates to your flash without a headache. The SAFC you can tune it yourself even, its quite simple. The SAFC is still safe because it retains the stock ECU, which has knock safety features.

Rob




Just wanted to see if my thinking is jacked up.
My friend and I got into a debate about which is worth the money more. I am siding with getting a piggyback ecu, and he thinks I should get a flash. His rational is that I spent all this money on good parts I should get it flashed by the pro's. My thought is that I want something tangible for my money. It will be tuned by the pro's, but I have the ability to fine tune after that.

mentally I place flashes as the lowest form of ecu control, piggyback ecu's that control fuel, boost, and timing as second, and a full standalone as third.

So how do you rate them.

best to worst
STANDALONE
PIGGYBACK
FLASH


Theres going to be pros and cons to all these.

The bottom line is that it will depend on your existing mods, your future mod path and to what extent.

Flash: Excellent control over your ecu program. Good if you won't mod much. Bad/limiting/expensive if you do.

Piggy Back: Best bang for buck. Changable from mod to mod or on the fly for race gas. Dangerous if not inadequate to run over 400WHP (IMO)

Stand Alone: Great at any time. Potentially expensive to tune. Not necessary for mods under 400WHP. Not for beginners.





The problem with the AFC is a nut shell is that you are inavriably always setting NEGATIVE numbers to dial in the a/r ratio on a evo - - this results in the ecu running on a much more overly advanced ignition timing zone which always means you are riding the knock sensor and have retarded timing. The AFC may result in higher timing for one or two dyno pulls but after 5 minutes of operation your timing is pulled and rough - NO WAY around it - period.

As shown above - the capacity to independently adjust a/f and timing results in huge tq gains and a much smoother power band.

The safc is a nice play toy but not even close to the same leauge as a serious tuning tool like the reflash machine.

Finally - few people realize the stock ecu has two main fuel and ign maps which are totally different. Many times people tune on one map with the safc and when the ecu switches to the second map your tune is significantly off.

I am really embarassed to say that I ever went the flash route.Â* But I did, and Dynoflash was the "tuner"Â* Pleanty of people speak out against or for Al already.Â* Thus instead of talking about his personality, driving techniques and tuning skills, I will skip to the end.

@ the time of tune, my car had a full exhaust, fuel pump, intake and a boost controller and a few other misc. goodies.

With a FULL CUSTOM STREET TUNE the car dyno'd in at 259WHP.
After a slight retune, with an SAFC, the number jumped to 283 WHP. :shock:
That was Als custome tune for me.Â* I phoned Al and he said that was the max I could safely take the car on 91.Â* (okay, sure)

I later tried to retune again for 100, but was having problems getting the timing to advance past 17.Â* I phoned Al again to ask why it would not advance.Â* He said it was the gas and to run 100.Â* I explained I was already on 100.Â* He indicated it was the was the tuner.Â* I asked if the timing was hard coded not to exceed 17/18.Â* He stated the details of the program were classified.Â* (Okay, whatever).

After an all night SAFC tune session, the car pulled 344WHP one 100 @ 17degrees of timing.

Regarding the nature of the Dynoflash tune, I do not know all the specifics.Â* But I can tell you what I have seen by driving and logging.

1.Â* It's rich as all hell.Â* I have to assume that is for safety reasons on 91.
2.Â* When you get on boost, the timing won't drop below 5 degrees.Â* This gives you a deceptive low end gain and smoother throttle response.
3.Â* You won't seen timing advance past 17.Â* The timing advance is otherwise a smooth incline.
4.Â* You will most likely loose power from the tune or be otherwise disapointed with your numbers.
5.Â* Your REV limit is increased.Â* But since you're loosing power in the top end and your head is probably not built, this is useless.
6.Â* Your speed limiter is removed.Â* Great.Â* I can't wait to see you pass me at 160.
7.Â* You fuel/boost cuts are removed or relocated.
8.Â* Reflashes were free if you bought the full custome tune.Â* But they won't be as agressive (hahahaha) if he can't be there in person to do another custome tune.Â* And if he is, he'll charge for the re-tune.Â* You car will be down 2-3 days while you send out your ECU.

IMHO, I would rather retune my SAFC every time I get in the car and drive then go with another flash.Â* It's money best spend elsewhere.




One of the cons of having a flash is that it can be difficult to tune on top of it.Â* It's something you should consider if you're at the starting point of your mods.Â*

Typically you'll need some tuning to maximize the return from your mods. But try to stay versitile.

2 cents

Blaze



While flashes can be just as good (or better) than an SAFC, the debate usually isn't on which is more effective, it's on which is more practical. Since most of the companies that provide flashes are futher away (WORKS being the closest), gettng updates for modifications can be a task in itself.

With the SAFC you can tune "on the fly" with ease and there are local tuners everywhere that are proficient at tuning it. You can even tune it yourself with a pocketlogger/EGT/gauge/boost gauge. You dont neccesarily need a pocketlogger to even tune it. If you wanted to tune a flash yourself you're looking at about $10K in equipment and, not to mention, the time to learn how to read which HEX value on the flash program means what.

Larger injectors - It's a huge misconception that larger injectors automatically mean more fuel consumption. That's not true unless you increase the amount of airflow through the engine (cams, boost, etc). In the case of an Evo with a stock turbo, we recommend the larger injectors because the stock ones are maxed out. The most common upgrade is a Denso 720CC injector. Upgrading to this size allows you to:

1. Keep the duty cycle of the injectors on the stock turbo below 80%.
2. Plan for any future turbo upgrades without needing to buy larger injectors.
3. Allow for more timing advance since the ECU is driving them at a lower voltage (duty cycle).[/list:u]
You dont have to consume more fuel if you tune it to not consume more fuel. For most people there's a slight increase in fuel consumption because they turn up the boost a little (remember, more air means you need more fuel). A large amount of the power gain you feel from larger injectors on the stock computer with SAFC combo is the fact that now you're running slightly more timing advance. You wont get much of a gain from just an SAFC on the stock injectors.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Rob

TYPICAL ANSWER NOWADAYS WITH THE ADVENT OF ECUFLASH



SAFC II. screw the NEO bling bling BS. Flash and SAFC for the ultimate combos.




do you still need bigger injectors if you are utilizing a flash also? i know bigger injectors were more to get timing advance using the afc and that can be set with the flash, but was wondering if it is still recommended




nope. no need for bigger injectors. cause with the flash you're able to controll the timing directly. O0




Personally I would go with a ecuflash cable to reflash and pay a good tuner down there to tune your car.

It's cheaper and better then a SAFC. I used AFC, SAFC for 7years or so. Now I reflash my car to tune. I will never run a SAFC again.

I know everyone lurves their SAFC, it does work. Reflash works better.




it's better to flash and SAFC tune. cause you change your setting and map on the fly. it's not a good idea to flash your ecu all the time switching back and fort between race gas and pump.


now... you get to hear what i think.

so if you read the above quotes you'll find some of them are prehistoric. back in the day flashing your ecu was evil because it was not a grassroots movement and we're all communists here in socal that like free do it yourself stuff. the ecuflashers were all capitalistic pigs that wanted to make money off your sorry ass wherever you were in the country even if they couldn't give you the best service possible.

fast forward a few years because in the infotech age that's all you need to come up with a cool solution that's virtually free. thank goodness for hackers and programers that made up the idea of open source, wow just saying that turns me on... anyway some cool people decided to make an open source ecuflashing software which could be freely distributed and contributed to by anyone (beauty of open source, oooh there it goes again). now the evil capitalist pigs no longer have anything to hold over our heads and we can go flashing our merry way and doing it all ourselves without paying them for shit.

so with this brief history lesson, it's clear to see why there was an overwhelming preference for the safc back in the day, it was repeatably tunable by yourself and it was simple.

well what about now? in the context of having ecuflash and evoscan/mitsulogger (all similarly developed by the same group of people, yes i know i'm lumping them), we have such an array of tools at our disposal! so where does safc sit in contention with ecu flashing now?

well safc still has its place.

1) one arguement is that it still can be tuned on the fly, no laptop required, same basic function that everyone has always loved. ecuflash requires a laptop.

2) the safc 2 can hold two maps, this is useful for switching to a high octane map or a low boost 89 octane map.

3) there is an anomolous occurance in some evos that causes the load table to be overrun when extensive modifications are made. this requires the rescaling of the load table in order to maintain tunability of the car, otherwise your car knocks out of control because there literally are no directions on what the car should be fueling at that point. safc solves this naturally because it's an ecu tricker, so it always causes the ecu to read a lower load value (because maf frequency is a part of calcualted load), keeping it well within the limits of the load table.

4) the safc is seemless in the opposite way of how the flash is seemless, you can remove it and no one will ever know it was there (provided you spliced a harness)

why flashes are better (the same reasons as before)

1) flashes are seemless, you can tune every data point without very much interpolative inaccuracies. what you put in is what you get. the safc has only 12 points that you can move around and everything else is averaged.

2) flashes can affect timing, this is crucial to tuning and safcs need injectors to indirectly affect timing.

3) flashes can control a variety of things that an safc can't. the safc is capable of using all the ecu's functions but it's not capable of editing any of them. in this sense a flash with the proper logging is almost an entire tuning system.

4) flashes were always cheaper for a one time deal, now they're cheaper for as many times as you want.

read this on why you need injectors with safc

http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=6961.0

http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=30198.15

read this on why you have to rescale the load with a flash
http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=27198.0

IN THE END THE CHOICE IS YOURS. all the information is given. it's nice to have both... oh wow what a concept.