mivec tuning exposed with dll dyno graphs

[trinydex]

This is being posted here in conjunctin with evom because of the inherient higher level of technical discussion that occurs here:


Since the introduction of the evo IX mostly everybody had little to no idea what changing the mivec mapping in the ecu does. Many people have stated that the JDM mivec map is better than the USDM but with little or no data to back it up. Local reports have been that it increases low end torque about 15 foot lbs. I’ve never seen a before and after dyno with no other changes but the mivec map changes. I’ve also done little to no fixed cam timing tuning on other cars however I have talked to many people who have. The evo IX varies only the intake cam. From talking to people in industry and talking via people who have NABR accounts (because I am not a member) there are a few things that you should understand.

Nobody can really prove what the degrees in the mivec maps mean at this point. Nobody can as far as I’ve been able to decipher can prove that it is in crank degrees, cam degrees, or some arbitrary hex to decimal value. When doing fixed cam timing on a normal motor little to no advance at higher rpm’s yields more high rpm torque. More mivec advance at low rpm’s yields more low rpm torque and can spool the turbo significantly quicker providing even more low rpm’ torque. How much, where, and when still confuses people. Thank god we only got a single cam mivec instead of a dual cam else people would be really confused!

So because I’m ignorant to all this I decided to do my best to get some data. You can talk about it all you want but I like to learn by testing. The test vehicle is a 2006 evo IX 5 speed model. Car has a magnaflow 3� catback, MBC at 20psi, and a K&N drop in. AFR’s are mid 11’s at all times in boost. The car was brought up to temperature with an hour of highway driving. Then a flat level road was found. After every pull the car received a cool off period, and then a short driving period to get air over the motor, a check of the coolant temps, and then another pull was started at the exact same point in the same direction of the perfectly level road. When using the datalog lab dyno it is imperative to minimize the variables for good data collection or you are just like a bad dyno operator getting bad data. I was pleased with the data so I’ll post it below. Let’s see if we can confirm or deny suspicions on the mivec tuning.

After all the testing I did a pull of the JDM mivec map. All my pulls were plotted against this in DLL. The JDM mivec map is always the dark hp and tq lines while the mivec test pulls are always my benchmark lines. I did this because the JDM maps are a slight improvement over stock USDM maps and many people are running the JDM map therefore it is my baseline.

The first pull is the mivec put to all 0’s in every cell vs JDM mivec:
http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/JDMvs0degreesmivec.JPG


The second pull is the mivec put to all 10’s in every cell vs JDM mivec:
http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/JDMvs10degreesmivec.JPG


The third pull is the mivec put to all 20’s in every cell vs JDM mivec:
http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/JDMvs20degreesmivec.JPG


The fourth pull is the mivec put to all 30’s in every cell vs JDM mivec. Of note the car did not idle very well and wanted to stall a few times:
http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/JDMvs30degreesmivec.JPG




What someone would do is now take all this data and pick the best RPM vs LOAD bands and put it in their maps to “build� their own mivec maps. On this car we can make a significant amount of low rpm power with more mivec advance. We can also make more high rpm power with no mivec advance. The midrange will see little to no benefit from mivec tuning.

Anybody can tune this to dial in their mivec better. Just collect the data from different mivec values like I did and do some pulls and chart them against your current mivec map.

[Terry S]

Hey Trin,

V!shnu posted up several dyno sheets visually demonstrating the benefits of MIVEC tuning. They did this like last Oct/Nov (05) when they first got their hands on a IX.

I remember one specific graph that showed the base map, then two more pulls showing just MIVEC tweaks performed. As I recall, it showed an enormous improvement in spoolup.

Terry S

[Terry S]

Well, I think I found the thread that had the charts, but alas, they be gone now for some reason :(

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=170365&highlight=MIVEC

Terry S

Edit: Here's the specific post I was referring to in my other post: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=2569802&postcount=97

[EVO Neil]

Another great information post from trinyDeX!

[trinydex]

i can't take credit, the original poster is from norcalevo.

[EVO Neil]

But you manage to find it and post it here. Many thanks.

[trinydex]

my job :]

[fusionchicken]

Davy has truly benefited this board greatly, no questions asked :)

[v8hater]

Davy can you pm me and explain this to me in idiot terms??? or if someone can break it down to me I would appericate it O0

[trinydex]

the idea is that this guy did some very basic tuning with his mivec. he put all the same number across the board and then did a lil ecu road dyno to see how it affected the power curve.

with this info you a person can disect the dyno graphs and then see which numbers will correspond to what kind of change where in the powerband. this allows anyone on here to then splice together these numbers for a more custom tune.

as "expected" the more you advance the intake cam the faster boost up arrives and the larger the peak torque down low. the more you retard the intake cam the longer you hold peak torque up top but the slower you boost etc.

he gives the wouldbe users the extreme numbers so you can kinda have a starting point once you start pluggin' numbers in.

[v8hater]

^^thanks Davy

[UMIAMI80]

VERY good post, it shows a good gain with the 30 Degree advance but effecs the torque, but wow what a great baseline to follow.

[trinydex]

just to clarify, it's not 30 degrees but it's the VALUE 30 placed in the mivec tuning parameters. the original post is misleading but i wanna put this out there so people realize.

[JCRUZ]

I have a ix and after installing my cosworth 272 cams, do i still reap the power of the mivec? How does that work?

[trinydex]

mivec is the pnumatically adjustable cam gear. you still reap the benefits.

[JCRUZ]

Well, i was thinking of upgrading those cam gears as well. Would that rid of the mivec then? Would you recomend upgrading the cam gears on 9s or no?

[trinydex]

you will not be upgrading cam gears.

[JCRUZ]

Thanks! Will do more research as well.

[StockEVO]

You can upgrade the exhaust side cam gear. The right way to do it especially with cams is to degree the cams in.

[GokuSSJ4]

You can upgrade the exhaust side cam gear. The right way to do it especially with cams is to degree the cams in.
do you perform such thing? oh common!

[FastForward]

For the past 2 days Ive been running a more aggresive MIVEC map and only one word can describe it: WOW! ITs basically a combination of the JDM map and the USDM map, but much more aggresive at the bottom end. The car in low gears feels like an N/A. Turbo lag is pretty much gone. The car does idle a little higher than stock, but thats something that can be fixed if it ever bugs me, but till now Im fine with it. I dont have any stalling problems, just a little higher idle. As soon as I got in the car after the flash, I got this immediate "grin" on my face, I couldnt believe how the car felt. I barely have to step on the gas pedal to get this thing going. In 5th gear going like 30mph would of been impossible with the stock map, but with this map, I can go 30 in 5th and floor it and still spool up very fast.

[ohhgyeahfasho]

^^ can you post or pm me how your mivec map looks? i also combined the USDM and JDM mivec maps and i think its a bit too aggressive..i would like to see and compare..

[FastForward]

ill get them later today and ill pm you

[ohhgyeahfasho]

ill get them later today and ill pm you


alright, thanks.

[trinydex]

why not post them up?

[ohhgyeahfasho]

i will post mine up in a bit, its a combination of jdm and usdm map and some from my friends tuned evo ix(93oct though)..so whoever is familiar with tuning, please let me know if its too aggressive and help me fix it =] HAHA

[Granny Shifter]

are you essentially using a 93 octane map on your evo which gulps 91 octane? or is it a modified version of his map?

[ohhgyeahfasho]

its still not on my car yet, i have created a less aggressive version of his, but i still think its really aggressive because i combined the JDM mivec map onto it and some little modification..but i sent my friend my mivec map and he ran it on his car, and he said it wasnt bad. but we both are not professional tuners and still are learning so we both could be wrong..

heres my first version(was tested on 93oct)..and im going to try to modify it some more when i see FastForward's mivec map..then finally put it on my car..if you guys see something really wrong with it, please let me know so i can make this map better =]


(and dont flame me too much, im still a noob with tuning) :crazy2:

[FastForward]

sorry I will post a link to mine as soon as my "tuner" oks for me to do it. He said he would, jsut waiting on the link. Looking at yours I can tell you right away that mine is really different. At 6500 and up we found theres no need to still run MYVEC. All those values for me are at 0. My low end has some low values, where yours has 0, which gives the car the quicker spool up. Down the center, your 28.8s are 30 for me. Like I said I dont have any stumble problems, just a little higher idle, which can be taken away by seeting the lower values to 0 but it dosent bug me so I left it as it is.

[earlyapex]

Looks fine to me. The center part is the key to good spool and overall better feel. It might be a tad too advanced at 5500 but every evo is different.

[nj1266]

Here is the mivec map that Fast Forward and I are using on our cars. It is a combination of the radical mivec map found in the Ecuflash forum on Evom and a map given to me by John Bradley who post on the Ecuflash forum. I simply put them together and adopted them to 91 octane gas use. Basically above 6000 rpm I zero out the mivec completely. I did not find much power difference between advancing timing above 6000 and zeroing it out. My car became more knock sensitive when mivec timing was advanced above 6000 rpm. Since gas pices are going down, I am hoping that 100 octane would fall back to $4.99/g. I can go back to mixing for 93 octane and see if advancing the mivec above 6000 rpm with 93 octane gas helps the top end.

The spool up in this mapis fantastic. At the low end 500-3000 rpm it is like driving an NA car. Just shift at low rpm to the next gear and it pulls. At first I thought it was in my mind, but Fast Forward confirmed the same thing. At first he had a hard time adjusting to the driveability on his car. You usually use too much throttle with the Evo to get it going. With this map throttle response is amazing. I kept quiet while he was driving for the first few minutes. The look on his face was priceless :2funny:

The only downside is the idle goes up a bit. in normal driving it stays around 800 rpm. After hammering on the car it hovers around 1000 rpm. But I have a cure for that with another map that lowers timing advance in the idle areas, but it is not as snappy as this map.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/EVO/mivec2.gif

[FastForward]

The look on my face was "priceless"!Â* I love the way the car feels now! its so much easier to drive around town.

[nj1266]

The look on my face was "priceless"! I love the way the car feels now! its so much easier to drive around town. Thanks alot Naji!

I wonder if the gas mileage will improve since we are using less throttle input to get the car going. It gas mileage improves, then that will be icing on the cake. Glad you like your car.

[ohhgyeahfasho]

thanks for the input guys!..oh alright cool, ill fix my map and zero out everythin past 6000..keep in mind that my original map was set for 93oct and not 91oct..and some values were pulled for example my 28's are supposed to be 33's on the 93 map..and btw can I use the low rpm tables on your map? haha I want to at least ask permission..

ill test both maps on 2 different cars and see if I can find some differences and see what part of the map made the big difference..and ill post it on here..thanks again guys..

[ohhgyeahfasho]

dang it I'm on my sidekick and I can't see the map! ahahha =.=

[earlyapex]

and some values were pulled for example my 28's are supposed to be 33's on the 93 map..and btw can I use the low rpm tables on your map?


Mivec tops out at 30. Putting higher than 30's in will not do anything and could possibly trigger a CEL.

[FastForward]

if you look at my map above you will see that we dont use anything higher than 30....

[earlyapex]

if you look at my map above you will see that we dont use anything higher than 30....


I wasn't talking about your map. ;)

[nj1266]

thanks for the input guys!..oh alright cool, ill fix my map and zero out everythin past 6000..keep in mind that my original map was set for 93oct and not 91oct..and some values were pulled for example my 28's are supposed to be 33's on the 93 map..and btw can I use the low rpm tables on your map? haha I want to at least ask permission..

ill test both maps on 2 different cars and see if I can find some differences and see what part of the map made the big difference..and ill post it on here..thanks again guys..

Go ahead and use the entire map and tell me how your car feels in daily driving. FF and I felt siginficant improvements in daily driving. Throttle response improved and we needed less throttle input to move the car. Our cars really felt like NA cars.

You are right the radical mivec map posted on evom does have 33s in it, but as Razorlab mentioned there is no gain beyond 30 advance.

[Sr20kidD]

Here is the mivec map that Fast Forward and I are using on our cars. It is a combination of the radical mivec map found in the Ecuflash forum on Evom and a map given to me by John Bradley who post on the Ecuflash forum. I simply put them together and adopted them to 91 octane gas use. Basically above 6000 rpm I zero out the mivec completely. I did not find much power difference between advancing timing above 6000 and zeroing it out. My car became more knock sensitive when mivec timing was advanced above 6000 rpm. Since gas pices are going down, I am hoping that 100 octane would fall back to $4.99/g. I can go back to mixing for 93 octane and see if advancing the mivec above 6000 rpm with 93 octane gas helps the top end.

The spool up in this mapis fantastic. At the low end 500-3000 rpm it is like driving an NA car. Just shift at low rpm to the next gear and it pulls. At first I thought it was in my mind, but Fast Forward confirmed the same thing. At first he had a hard time adjusting to the driveability on his car. You usually use too much throttle with the Evo to get it going. With this map throttle response is amazing. I kept quiet while he was driving for the first few minutes. The look on his face was priceless :2funny:

The only downside is the idle goes up a bit. in normal driving it stays around 800 rpm. After hammering on the car it hovers around 1000 rpm. But I have a cure for that with another map that lowers timing advance in the idle areas, but it is not as snappy as this map.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/EVO/mivec2.gif


I just got "Looney Tuned" and like gus (Ff) and Naji (nJ1266) reported, its like driving an N/A car... like Gus noticed, I can be cruzing at 30mph on 5th, mash the pedal and its like im in first gear without down shifting.. lol!

[fusionchicken]

Here is the mivec map that Fast Forward and I are using on our cars. It is a combination of the radical mivec map found in the Ecuflash forum on Evom and a map given to me by John Bradley who post on the Ecuflash forum. I simply put them together and adopted them to 91 octane gas use. Basically above 6000 rpm I zero out the mivec completely. I did not find much power difference between advancing timing above 6000 and zeroing it out. My car became more knock sensitive when mivec timing was advanced above 6000 rpm. Since gas pices are going down, I am hoping that 100 octane would fall back to $4.99/g. I can go back to mixing for 93 octane and see if advancing the mivec above 6000 rpm with 93 octane gas helps the top end.

The spool up in this mapis fantastic. At the low end 500-3000 rpm it is like driving an NA car. Just shift at low rpm to the next gear and it pulls. At first I thought it was in my mind, but Fast Forward confirmed the same thing. At first he had a hard time adjusting to the driveability on his car. You usually use too much throttle with the Evo to get it going. With this map throttle response is amazing. I kept quiet while he was driving for the first few minutes. The look on his face was priceless :2funny:

The only downside is the idle goes up a bit. in normal driving it stays around 800 rpm. After hammering on the car it hovers around 1000 rpm. But I have a cure for that with another map that lowers timing advance in the idle areas, but it is not as snappy as this map.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/EVO/mivec2.gif


I just got "Looney Tuned" and like gus (Ff) and Naji (nJ1266) reported, its like driving an N/A car... like Gus noticed, I can be cruzing at 30mph on 5th, mash the pedal and its like im in first gear without down shifting.. lol!


dunno about 1st gear, but after my Evo got retuned 5th gear is definitely much stronger :)

[ohhgyeahfasho]

dang, btw are you guys running this mivec map with a stock fuel map? or you guys also got your fuel map tuned? im still learning more about the fuel map, and tuned a little of the degree's here and there but i was too scared to make any drastic changes because i didn't want to mess up the fuel map too bad, since we are only running the piss 91oct(if i mess up really bad, it can be bad for my engine LOL)...


btw thanks a lot for sharing your map Fastforward and nj1266, i will try this map out..

[nj1266]

dang, btw are you guys running this mivec map with a stock fuel map? or you guys also got your fuel map tuned? im still learning more about the fuel map, and tuned a little of the degree's here and there but i was too scared to make any drastic changes because i didn't want to mess up the fuel map too bad, since we are only running the piss 91oct(if i mess up really bad, it can be bad for my engine LOL)...


btw thanks a lot for sharing your map Fastforward and nj1266, i will try this map out..


My car, FF's car and SR20kid's car have had their fuel, timing, and boost maps "Looney Tooned." "Looney tooning" is the next level in tuning. Looney tooning frowns on the use of MBCs and open filter intakes. It is going to take the Evo world by a stormÂ* :grin: :grin: :grin:

[ohhgyeahfasho]

^^ hahaha nice!..i need to make my fuel map leaner...im still currently on the stock fuel map, and i need to fix it, its too damn rich..

[TeKiZeRo]

Dayuuuuum! After reading this I really want to try this out!

ohhgyeahfasho, did you try using FF's numbers in your table yet?

[ohhgyeahfasho]

Dayuuuuum! After reading this I really want to try this out!

ohhgyeahfasho, did you try using FF's numbers in your table yet?


yes, and what they speak is the truth. i sent the my table with some modifications from FF's map to my friend who's running 93oct 30min ago(hes in Central time zone, so it was like 2am something) he got out of bed, flashed his ecu and logged his car and ran around, he was very pleased on how it was so responsive in the low rpm, and he also said that he noticed more kick in 4th and 5th gear..tomorrow im going to test this on 91oct, with 2 cars..Evo IX with my first map and Evo IX with FF's map+some tweaks. and i will log it, and i will test this on completely stock fuel maps. man i wish i had a dyno..

i really need to learn how to tune the fuel maps! hahaha someone teach me! >.<!

[TeKiZeRo]

Awesome! Let us know how it goes. I might do some custom tuning next week after I get my bolt-ons on so I would love to be able to put these mivec changes in to see the difference. What tweaks will you be doing to FFs map?

[ohhgyeahfasho]

i only changed some of the values in the higher rpm and in higher load part, mostly done in the 4500-5500 range..i still need to test them though..so you have a tactrix cable? do you have knowledge in fuel map tuning?

[TeKiZeRo]

Naw, I don't know how to tune fuel maps. My friend will be tuning my car if he's available after the install.

[Evolutionized]

our cars justin and our friend....

cant wait!!

[vortech_g35]

I'll just give you my maps :P, wonder if they would work.

[TeKiZeRo]

I still have your maps on my laptop... I'll take a look tomorrow to see if Alfred altered them :D.

ohhgyeahfasho - Any updates?

[ohhgyeahfasho]

I'll just give you my maps :P, wonder if they would work.


what maps? mind if i take a look at them please? :) whatever map your talking about, i can test them to see if they work or not.. hahaha

[TeKiZeRo]

I have them on my laptop and with Andrew's permission, I can PM them to you.

[TeKiZeRo]

Anyone know if messing with the mivec settings can cause any potential damage to the engine?

[leaveit2bevo]

Anyone know if messing with the mivec settings can cause any potential damage to the engine?


no as long as its a good tune.

[fusionchicken]

Anyone know if messing with the mivec settings can cause any potential damage to the engine?


no as long as its a good tune.


+1

if done correctly your off-boost response will be off the hook, my car seriously feels like a healthy v6 down low right now.

as well expect great spool; the power delivery will feel like an n/a vehicle.

[Granny Shifter]

darn mivec :(

[Dos531]

darn mivec :(

Jealous?

[fusionchicken]

darn mivec :(

Jealous?


now that's just mean :D

[Granny Shifter]

at least Jun produces cams for my car!Â* blah :buck2:

[Dos531]

Yeah but nobody with any sense would buy them.

[TeKiZeRo]

Anyone know if messing with the mivec settings can cause any potential damage to the engine?


no as long as its a good tune.


+1

if done correctly your off-boost response will be off the hook, my car seriously feels like a healthy v6 down low right now.

as well expect great spool; the power delivery will feel like an n/a vehicle.


Did you use the maps posted up by FastForward?

[fusionchicken]

Anyone know if messing with the mivec settings can cause any potential damage to the engine?


no as long as its a good tune.


+1

if done correctly your off-boost response will be off the hook, my car seriously feels like a healthy v6 down low right now.

as well expect great spool; the power delivery will feel like an n/a vehicle.


Did you use the maps posted up by FastForward?


naw i had someone else tune my car. if you want to know who it is send me a PM.

[FastForward]

I would love to see the maps that you used Tekisero, would you mind posting them?

[MJCT9A]

at least Jun produces cams for my car! blah :buck2:


Yeah but nobody with any sense would buy them.


i beg to differ....JUN FTMFW!!!

MIVEC KILLA.....j/k LOL

[nj1266]

naw i had someone else tune my car. if you want to know who it is send me a PM.


Your tuner uses the JDM Evo 9 RS map. The map that I use is more aggressive @ the top end and is way snappier at the low end. I used the JDM Evo 9 RS map. It is a good map, but this map that I posted is better. But I am biased because it is my creation :D

[TeKiZeRo]

I would love to see the maps that you used Tekisero, would you mind posting them?


I haven't used any maps yet because I'm still waiting for a Tactrix cable :). I will be using the map nj1266 posted and work my way up from there though.

[FastForward]

ok cool, the map nj1266 posted is the same map that I have.

[ohhgyeahfasho]

nj1266 all i can say is, Jesus Christ!...hahahahaha the drive home was fun and made me love my car more..it was a great experience learning from you. and guys, nj1266 really knows his stuff. 8)

[jeric]

hey nj...how long did it take you to develop this sophisticated map? like how many pulls did it take? what parameters did you log to see if your changes had any affect? i wonder if i'll be able to tell the difference...cuz right now i'm running the jdm map for the RS.
i'm gonna test this map on my RS tomorrw...i'll try to make a before and after video of the tach O0 and the look on my face haha...

[fusionchicken]

naw i had someone else tune my car. if you want to know who it is send me a PM.


Your tuner uses the JDM Evo 9 RS map. The map that I use is more aggressive @ the top end and is way snappier at the low end. I used the JDM Evo 9 RS map. It is a good map, but this map that I posted is better. But I am biased because it is my creation :D


my tuner modified the JDM Evo 9 RS map as well....i LOVE the way my car drives right now. just logged it today, 0 knock counts down the whole freaking column. thing of beauty.

[nj1266]

my tuner modified the JDM Evo 9 RS map as well....i LOVE the way my car drives right now. just logged it today, 0 knock counts down the whole freaking column. thing of beauty.

Correct. We all start with the JDM RS Evo 9 map and change it a bit. Your tuner and I went through the same frustrating process with the two widely used tuners in SoCal. We finally gave up on pro-tuners and decided to tune our own cars. IMO, we are doing a better job than they are :)

[fusionchicken]

my tuner modified the JDM Evo 9 RS map as well....i LOVE the way my car drives right now. just logged it today, 0 knock counts down the whole freaking column. thing of beauty.

Correct. We all start with the JDM RS Evo 9 map and change it a bit. Your tuner and I went through the same frustrating process with the two widely used tuners in SoCal. We finally gave up on pro-tuners and decided to tune our own cars. IMO, we are doing a better job than they are :)


i definitely love my car much much more with the new tune ;) i actually thought about selling my car and gettin a v8 until this recent retune. it completely transformed the damn car.

[TeKiZeRo]

It just installed the JDM RS mivec map on my car and I love how the car responds off-boost. Especially when you're rolling to a redlight and it turns green, you can give it some slight throttle and you'll just GO. I want to use the more aggressive map made by NJ, but I'm just worried about how aggressive it is.

[nj1266]

It just installed the JDM RS mivec map on my car and I love how the car responds off-boost. Especially when you're rolling to a redlight and it turns green, you can give it some slight throttle and you'll just GO. I want to use the more aggressive map made by NJ, but I'm just worried about how aggressive it is.

Try it and log the car and see if it knocks. If it does, then adjust the other parameters to the map. I start with the mivec map and then adjust AFR/timing to fit the map. I have noticed that aggressive mivec has a slight impact on the AFR.

[TeKiZeRo]

NJ, you got PM! I have a few questions for you regarding your map if you don't mind :).

[evo ippo]

Wow good stuff

[vortech_g35]

Nice write up. There is some good information here,

[amak87]

whats the best mivec map to use with cams? any input would be good. Im using NJ's Mivec combo map. But after installing cams, the spool up has seemed much slower.. where should I start playing with the Mivec Map??

[TeKiZeRo]

I have a Mivec map made for Cosworth cams by John Bradley. Let me know if you want it.