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trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:41 AM
I decided to make another tech thread since some people apreciated the intercooler comparison.

First some notes on fuel pump sizing:
When looking at the specs of a fuel pump, be sure to note voltage and fuel pressure for a given flow rate. Pump flow and voltage are directly proportional, while flow and fuel pressure have an inverse relationship. To put it simply...as voltage to the pump goes down, so does the pump's potential output. As fuel pressure increases, the pump's potential output decreases due to the pressure it must overcome.

Many pumps are rated at 0 psi, which is a rather useless figure. 200 GPH at 0 psi is around 144 GPH at 4 bar which would be typical for a car running 1 bar of boost (with a manifold referenced FPR) on top of a standard 3 bar static pressure. At 2 bar of boost you'd be down around 125 GPH.

When sizing your pump it's important to know the supply voltage it will be receiving. Does voltage to the pump drop when you turn on the A/C or other accessories? Find out what your system really produces at a minimum and how much the pump flows
at that voltage. Prepare for the worst case scenario and do what you can to ensure that the pump gets good constant voltage.

Here's a ]http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm[/url]

You can see that the Denso 310 pump gives you a touch more headroom than a wally 255, but only up to 22 psi, at which point the Walbro actually outflows it. I'd switch up from a single Walbro or Denso 310lph around 550 hp. You can run twins or switch to an external above that. Again these are just guidelines and they depend on your setup. If you're naturally aspirated, you can go further than FI guys on the same pump due to lower BSFC and generally lower fuel pressure. Those running high boost require more pump capacity than those running low boost. Remember that as I mentioned above, fuel pump flow decreases as fuel pressure increases. I know you're used to thinking about bumping up the fuel pressure to get more fuel in the engine through the same injector size, but the increased pressure makes it harder for the fuel pump to flow. Forced induction applications generally use 1:1 regulators for that exact reason. As manifold pressure increases it decreases injector flow, unless the pressure behind the injector is equalized (above base pressure) with manifold pressure.

One nice thing about the Denso pumps (for some people) is that they're quiet. Many of you already know this, but Walbros are louder than stock. Also the Denso is OEM quality and they're known to generally last longer than Walbros. Denso happens to supply the OEM Evo pump, it simply has a lesser flow capacity of 190 lph. The Denso 310 pump does cost nearly 3 times as much as the Walbro, so keep that in mind.

If you go to a big external pump, a pump controller is key to avoid fuel overheating and pump damage, especially for a street driven car which isn't always at or near maximum effort. If you're running twin Walbros or Densos, some engine management systems (such as AEM EMS) allow you to automatically kick on the secondary pump when certain conditions are met. For instance on the EMS I kick the secondary pump on above a certain manifold pressure. This serves a similar purpose as the external pump controller by pumping less fuel when it's not needed. This decreases flow through the return system and excess recirculation, which keeps fuel and pump heating to a minimum.

Before someone says....but this guy made this much HP on this pump so you're wrong...people make power with a RRFPR and stock engine management, they drive in the snow all winter on summer tires, and rev 1000 rpm over stock without valvetrain upgrades, but that doesn't mean they're smarter or better. It means they're either less informed or more willing to accept disaster. :) Also these numbers aren't set in stone. Every car is different, but these are good general guidelines. On that note, everything in this thread applies to gasoline only. If you're running the car on methanol (not talking about a little injection) or some other fuel this goes right out the window. If you're running race fuel, nitrous oxide, meth injection or other power boosting agents, you CAN get more HP out of a given amount of fuel.



Now onto fuel line sizing:
Here are some guidlines for EFI setups. The numbers don't apply for carb'd cars running fuel pressures of 4-10 psi or so, which require larger lines for the same HP figures.

-6 (3/8") fuel line is good for 500-550 HP or so on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -8 (1/2") for the suction side

-8 (1/2") fuel line is good for around 900-1000 HP on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -10 (5/8") for the suction side

People often go to -10 sooner as a precautionary measure. Just don't get into overkill too much or you'll overtax your pump and overheat the fuel. For instance...your 500 hp car almost definitely does not need -10 line on the pressure side. If you were powering the car with 100% methanol it would be another story.

Yes people have made over 500 hp with lines smaller than -6. It's just as I mentioned regarding the pumps. You can push the limits or you can take some extra time and money and build a margin of safety into your system. Remember different setups require different amounts of fuel to produce a given HP figure. I recommend switching to -6 for margin of safety if you're around 500 hp, and I'd go to -8 above 650 HP or so. After that I'd switch to -10 around 950 hp.

I didn't make this thread to scare half of you into replacing your whole fuel system. It's not necessary for the majority of you to change the lines. If you're building something and want to know if anything beyond a pump upgrade is necessary, I'm happy to help. {thumbup}


-Mike

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:44 AM
This thread is intended to provide a coherent guide to upgrading your fuel system as your modifications on your Evo go from mild to wild. When this thread is "finished," we'll clean it up and make decisions to rank competing approaches.

The single most amazing aspect of the Evo is how robust the system is to begin with. Most owners will never need more than a simple Walbro 255lph pump to meet their needs of up to 375+whp. Others will go to 525whp with just a Walbro and a set of bigger injectors. Pretty amazing.

If you would like to contribute to one of these stages, please copy the format I provided by quoting me, then remove the quote brackets, and edit what I, or others, have written.

One option that I am completely leaving out is methanol injection. Feel free to add a section on that if you want.

[B]Here are some helpful ]
RC Engineering (http://www.rceng.com/) - good fuel injector worksheet and have tested many of the fuel pumps discussed in this thread.

Road Race Engineering tech pages: this one explains how important voltage is (http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumptechtip.htm) and explains how wire your pump to get a bit more voltage to it. This one compares different fuel pump flow rates (http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumpflowrates.htm), including the seldom used Denso Supra TT pump.

This website, Stealth 316 (http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm), goes into incredible detail about a wide variety of in-tank fuel pumps and uses all kinds of objective data to support fuel pump choices.

ImportEvolution (http://www.importevolution.com/default.php?cPath=24&osCsid=5de45ad34347690cf56558e5223bb69a) is a great company that claims they are about to become an official EvoM vendor. They feature lots more do-it-yourself parts than any vendor I could find on Evom. If there IS a vendor on Evom with as good or better selection of fuel-related parts, let me know and I will change this link to them. This is where I got my external Walbro and they shipped the next day. Very fast.

Aeromotive's (http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products.php) website has a lot of good technical information to go along with pumps, and FPRs.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:44 AM
Upgrade #1: Walbro 342 in-tank 255lph fuel pump.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/extremepowerperformance/Walbro%20Installation%20Kits/WalbroGSS341GSS342GSS250GSS278GSS315GSS317250x.jpg

When is this recommended: As soon as you upgrade to a full 3 inch exhaust, add some sort of boost controller, and get a more aggressive tune via reflash or piggyback EMS device. At this point, it isn't absolutely necessary but most vendors/tuners recommend it here because it is so affordable and provides added headroom to your fuel system.

When is it a necessity: According to vendor/tuners on Evom, when you have parts listed above and add aftermarket camshaft/s.

Price: Around $100 bucks

Don't forget: you might want to make sure it comes with the little filter, which might add $10 to your order.

Where to buy: This is just my opinion, but please buy from Vendors on Evom that actually wrench on/tune Evos. AMS, Buschur, Gruppe-S, etc. Their financial health benefits us all.

Fuel system is safe with only this upgrade until?: On a typical dynojet, at about 385whp. On a properly calibrated DynoDynamics at about 345whp. At this point, it is time to add bigger fuel injectors.

More expensive alternative: Denso 1020 Supra Twin Turbo OEM fuel pump. It costs about $200 with the filter "tea bag" and has been tested to flow a bit more than the Walbro at 14 volts.
http://www.3sxperformance.com/images/fuel-pump-supra-denso-04-300.jpg

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:45 AM
Upgrade #2:Larger capacity fuel injectors

http://www.turbogarage.com/includes/TG%20Pics/TG%20Denso%20660cc.jpg

When is this recommended:
1.) If you have one of those stock turboed monsters running 11sec/116+ 1/4 mile times, bigger injectors may be a good idea, although folks have gone as fast as 119+ in the 1/4 with the stock ones.
2.) If you have a highly tuned Evo with a modified stock turbo (White Rabbit, 20G-9) that is making over 380whp dynojet/340whp DynoDynamics. 3.)
3.) If you have done ANY full turbo upgrade (Garrett 30R on up).

Which injectors? Bigger isn't better! Go with the smallest capacity that you can absolutely rely upon to handle the power your car will make with its power upgrades.

Stock ECU: Use Denso 660cc or equivalent 680cc, or 720cc for stock, modified stock, GT3071 and 50trim turbos. Using the smallest effective injector will result in less adjustments being necessary to accomodate them and your stock ECU will be better able to make short and long term fuel trim adjusments that are easily within its adjustment range. With the stock ECU, it is rare that you can get anything bigger than 880cc injectors to work effectively.

AEM EMS: This EMS requires somewhat larger injectors due to less efficient injector drivers. (do a search for Evom Guru Ted B for more info on this). Since folks using this system may need to go with 880cc, 1000cc, or larger. This isn't a problem when using the Speed Density approach to metering air and fuel mixtures.

Price: Around $400 bucks

Don't forget: If you buy used injectors, it is a very good ideas to replace the rubber seals.

Where to buy: This is just my opinion, but please buy from Vendors on Evom that actually wrench on/tune Evos. AMS, Buschur, Gruppe-S, etc. Their financial health benefits us all.

Fuel system is safe with only this (and #1) upgrade until?: Assuming you have purchased the proper injectors, your fuel system is capable with these and the Walbro 255 to safely make between 520 to 550whp.

Note: After this it gets interesting...

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:45 AM
Upgrade #3: The 525 to 550whp problem: Recommendations needed

Fuel rails are around $160
http://www.importevolution.com/images/aemfuelrail.jpg

This FPR is good to 700whp and is $153
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/prod_imgs/img-10-1-large.jpg

These cheap little $20 gauges bolt right up to your rail or FPR.
http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/images/Fuel%20Pressure%20Guage.jpg

Bosch relay - couple of bucks
http://www.autotoys.com/pics/boschrelayspdt.jpg

10 gauge wire - $10 bucks.
http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29872.0;id=6393;im age

This upgrade should be geared for the MANY Evo owners with turbo upgrades that keep things relatively safe and sane (around 525 to 550whp max), but don't want to completely overhaul their fuel system.

Options:
1.) Rewire Walbro to run 14+ volts. This isn't really that effective on Evo's because they already see pretty good voltage at the pump. Our stock fuel pumps run at ~13.4 volts under load, this slight increase to 14 volts should yield about 5% more fuel delivery at most. Cost: about $20

2.) Buy the OEM Denso Supra TT pump to begin with and run the 14+ volt wiring. Depending on who you believe, this should be good for 10% more fuel than the Walbro at stock voltage.

3.) Add aftermarket fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pressure gauge, and supporting under-hood fuel lines and fittings. Cost: about $380.

4.) ?

Vendors, gurus, etc. Please help here.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:46 AM
Upgrade #4: The 550 to 625whp problem: Recommendations/editing needed

This upgrade should be geared for Evo owners like me with large turbo upgrades and built 2.0 to 2.4 motors that want to push their big 30R, 35R or equivalent turbos at or close to their maximum output without going completely full monty.

Options based on cost:
1.) Take what you have done in steps 1-3 and just add an inline external walbro for $116
http://www.importevolution.com/images/walbro_external.jpg

$10 dollar install kit:
http://www.importevolution.com/images/400-939.jpg

2.) Modify your sending unit and install a single big external fuel pump like the Aeromotive A1000 or a Weldon unit. Includes an external filter, lots of fuel line, FPR, rail, gauge, etc.

3.) Break down and buy a complete big dollar fuel system like the Buschur one or the AMS one for $1400 and be done with it.

Vendors, Gurus, etc. Please help here.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:46 AM
Upgrade #5: The 625+whp system: Recommendations/editing needed

This upgrade should be geared for Evo owners with 35R and larger turbo upgrades and built 2.0 to 2.4 motors that want to push their cars "all the way." These are the big boys running their 35Rs to their absolute max, 37Rs, and 40Rs (or equivalent turbos).

First, you might get to 600whp (I'm trying) on the stock ECU, but not much further, this is standalone EMS territory - meaning you are looking at REALLY big injectors well over 1000cc and highly modified fuel systems. In addition to most of the stock fuel components being overtaxed, many other stock systems are completely taxed out: ignition, stock MAF, valvetrain, etc.

1.) Modify your sending unit and install a single big external fuel pump like the Aeromotive Eliminator, A1000, or a Weldon unit. Includes an external filter, lots of fuel line, FPR, rail, gauge, etc.

2.) Break down and buy a complete big dollar fuel system like the Buschur one or the AMS one for $1400 and be done with it: http://www.amsperformance.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=148
http://www.amsperformance.com/store/images/amsfuelthumb.jpg

Vendors, Gurus, etc. Please help here.


Ok guys i have them in raw aluminum ready to ship in a day or two.Â* Â*THe price isÂ* $399.95Â* theres been a slight increase due to the fittings and and hardware that is included.Â* When you receive this kit, you will see that it includes basically everything you need.Â* Â*For those who have ordered them already ,Â* I will honor the original price.Â* Anodized ones will be after christmtas for an additional $20Â* there is a waiting list for the anodized ones as well.Â* The raw aluminum is ready to go.Â* Â*here are the pics. Please contact me with any questions or orders.Â* Contact info is at the bottom, or you can pm me . thanks and Merry Christmas :)Â*

Pumps are not included

**last picture is what you will be receiving, thanks guys.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture008Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture001Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture001Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture014Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture012Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture017Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture013Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/PictureMedium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture034Medium.jpg


Well my RS ran 9.97 at 142 mph a few weeks ago and it was being limited by the fact I was out of fuel. I had 1200 cc injectors in it and the duty cycle was maxed out.

I didn't want to change fuel lines or put a fuel cell into the car so the quest began for a solution.

I built a dual intank fuel pump set up for the factory tank. I am using two of our HO Walbro pumps, the modified versions we sell.

Anyway, put the car on the dyno this morning just like I ran it at the track. I made two dyno pulls, one in 3rd gear, one in 4th gear. I did this to verify the injector duty cycle and such. Duty cycle hit 105% at 35 psi boost.

I then turned the switch on to trigger the second pump at 6,000 rpm and 30 psi of boost. Instantly made the car so rich it wouldn't run, pegged the AFR's at 9:1. GREAT SUCCESS!!!

After some tuning and continually pulling fuel out of the car I was back to the same power level I started with BUT the duty cycles were way down, below 65%!

I then turned up the boost to make sure things were going to stay the same, I turned it up to 40 psi and ran the car out to 8500 rpm in 4th gear. BEAUTIFUL, AFR's nice and flat, duty cycles at 65%!

The system needs a little more refinement before we start to sell it but it is very straight forward.

You simply remove the stock fuel pump assembly and then replace it with ours. The factory fuel gauge works, the primary pump works like always and the second pump, if using some type of engine management that can trigger a relay, is turned on by any parameter you choose. If you are not running a system that is configurable like that we will be offering this kit with a simple pressure switch that will turn it on at a pre-set boost level.

The pumps feed into a single external fuel filter that is tucked away next to the gas tank under the car and then from the filter it goes into the stock fuel line.

I do have an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator on my car. I am going to bolt the stock one back on and see if it will work, it should work out great. This will mean the stock lines, feed and return, fuel rail and fuel regulator will work and supply all the fuel any street car is going to need.

I think I should actually be able to drop my injector size back to 880-1000 cc's now if I choose to.

Cost of this kit is going to be under $750 complete with a pressure switch.

The best thing, in my opinion is the factory fuel lines all stay intact, factory tank, siphon system, main fuel pump wiring and fuel gauge are all completely stock.

Pretty proud of this one. It will require you send us in your fuel pump assembly for a core or if you choose to buy it outright the price will go up around $250. Problem with this is right now there are no parts to build them in the USA, I have ordered some but they will be awhile waiting on them to come from Japan.

Thanks,


Hi everybody.

This is going to be a long one

Well we have been doing a lot of testing over the last 6 months. This is the longest we have waited to actually get the information out there from any testing we have done. Today I finished up the last of what I needed to do on the fuel systems for the EVO.

As anyone that actually knows anything about us knows, we pride ourselves on selling you what you need and what works more than just selling crap that isn't needed or won't work as well as something else we know exists. That's how we want treated and that's how we treat our customers.

With that said, we have done quite a bit of testing and such on the EVO fuel system.

First let's talk about the fuel pumps. Most every EVO shop that sells a Walbro pump for an EVO sells the GSS342 pump.

Here are the specs on that pump at boost levels that are important. This is flow testing the pump at 13.2 volts.

0 psi the pump flows 515 lb/hr
40 psi the pump flows 410 lb/hr
60 psi the pump flows 360 lb/hr
70 psi the pump flows 332 lb/hr
80 psi the pump flows 285 lb/hr
100 psi the pump flows 160 lb/hr

The reason these levels are important is it shows the fuel pumps are rated at 255 lt/hr at 0 psi. Nobody cares about that as the car doesn't run at 0 psi of fuel pressure.

So the first place to look is about 40 psi which is close to EVO rail pressure at idle, or your base fuel pressure. This really doesn't matter either as the car isn't going to run at 40 psi for long. As the boost comes up the fuel pressure raises 1 psi for each 1 psi raise in boost pressure.

To make this easier I am going to break it down in another "chart":

At 60 psi this pump is good for 600 flywheel horsepower
At 70 psi this pump is good for 553 flywheel horsepower
At 80 psi this pump is good for 475 flywheel horsepower
At 100 psi this pump is good for 266 flywheel horsepower

As you can see, as the pump falls off up top you can't make as much HP with it. The higher the base fuel pressure is set and the higher the boost goes the less the pump flows. So for a high horsepower, high boost EVO it just dies up top.

What happens is people end up putting in a big injector thinking they are out of fuel injector and as the pressure is falling the duty cycle is being ramped up higher and higher. We are guilty of this as much as anyone. Not anymore

I was going to go into what happens with you bump the voltage of the pumps from 13.2 to 15 volts but most of you are not interested in doing that and it is going to make this post so long nobody will read it. You can figure about 17% gain in flow. That will get you close. So it is substantial.

With the base pump out of the way now we can go onto our Modified High Output Walbro pump.

0 psi the pump flows 510 lb/hr
40 psi the pump flows 410 lb/hr
60 psi the pump flows 362 lb/hr
70 psi the pump flows 340 lb/hr
80 psi the pump flows 310 lb/hr
100 psi the pump flows 250 lb/hr

This makes this pump good for:

At 60 psi this pump is good for 603 flywheel horsepower
At 70 psi this pump is good for 566 flywheel horsepower
At 80 psi this pump is good for 516 flywheel horsepower
At 100 psi this pump is good for 416 flywheel horsepower

As you can see, if you are running high boost this pump really flows up top compared to a standard Walbro 255.

My brothers car and my car both ran out of fuel. I was able to run my EVO RS up to 542 whp on our dyno with the single Modified High Output pump we sell. I had 1200 cc injectors in the car running them at 100%+ duty cycles. The car ran a 9.97 at 142.32 mph like that. I was running our adjustable fuel pressure regulator kit on the stock fuel rail. This is where the testing started as my brother and I were both having the same troubles. Datalogging fuel pressure it was simple to find the problem. We were out of fuel pump.

Neither of us wanted to cut up our perfectly good EVO's to put in fuel cells. Neither of us wanted to run AN lines, I do not like AN lines. They dry out and crack and are prone to leaking after about 5 years. They are heavy, there is no real nice way to install them perfectly on a car. They are expensive and mostly, they just aren't needed.

My quest for a great double pumper(twin intank pumps) set up began. After careful study of the tank assembly and knowing I didn't want to hack into the factory wiring and didn't want to loose the factory fuel gauge I came up with an idea. First I needed more research. I called the best in the industry and got some flow rates of what the factory fuel lines could handle. Pushing fuel through a 5/16" fuel line you can supply enough fuel for 1,000 flywheel horsepower. This is exactly what I wanted to hear. No street EVO that I am going to want to actually drive is going to make that much power. An EVO making that much power is laggy as hell, no fun to drive and is more than likely dedicated for track. At that point, throw the stock fuel tank out, put in a lightweight fuel cell. My main concern was ease of installation and I wanted to be able to keep using as many stock components as I could.

I built the first double pumper set up and installed it in my RS. It worked absolutely amazing. The car went so rich that the car would barely run at WOT. After dialing in the AFR's again, back to where they were, the duty cycles dropped from 113% down to 65%!! At this point I had the adjustable regulator still on the car with the base pressure set at 50 psi. I was also still running the stock fuel rail. At this point it was obvious I didn't need a set of $700 1200 cc injectors in my car. I pulled them out and put in our $310 1,000 cc injectors.

The duty cycles of course went up a little, no problem. Then I decided to put the stock regulator on and see if I could still get by. No problem. The car was now making 590 whp (up from 542 when it ran 9.97) on 1,000 cc injectors, stock fuel rail, stock fuel lines, stock fuel pressure regulator!! The duty cycles were 84%. That's freaking great!

Here is the picture of our double pumper kit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/jrod@buschur/standupSMALLER.jpgÂ*

As you can see the kit is complete. It is a direct plug in. Non of the factory wiring is tapped into. It plugs in directly. We are using the same wiring bulk head fitting that is used in some Formula One fuel cells. The kit includes a pressure switch that is wired in for the 2nd pump only. At 16 psi of boost the 2nd pump is triggered to come on. For those of you that don't know the EVO doesn't have an external fuel filter. So it cannot be changed unless you buy a new fuel pump assembly. This is stupid. Our double pumper comes with a stainless steel inline 5 micron fuel filter. They can be bought seperately so you can change filters as needed in the future.

More data:

Our double pumper with two standard GSS342's in it will flow:

At 60 psi the twin pumps are good for 1200 flywheel horsepower
At 70 psi the twin pumps are good for 1106 flywheel horsepower
At 80 psi the twin pumps are good for 950 flywheel horsepower
At 100 psi the twin pumps are good for 533 flywheel horsepower

Our double pumper with two of our Modified High Output pumps in it will flow:

At 60 psi, 1206 FWHP
At 70 psi, 1133 FWHP
At 80 psi, 1033 FWHP
At 100 psi, 833 FWHP

Now, a note. There is some loss running two pumps together into a common line. I am going to eventually send these pumps out, for my own curiosity, and have them flowed through the Y that we use.

Right now what is important is we have a solution for 99% of EVO owners to go well into the 9's with minimal changes with a very high level of safety as the majority of the factory components are used.

I'm not done yet

Few weeks ago we had a friend/customer in here with his bad ass EVO. Car is set up like our black car, just like it actually. I was starting to dial the car in and at around 740 whp I started having problems. The car was going lean. Didn't make sense. This car had a fuel cell, -10 AN lines, Fuel pressure regulator etc. OH BUT WAIT!! The car was running the stock fuel rail! I went and got a fuel rail and installed it. Problem fixed. This car ended up making 790 whp on our dyno. This is basically the same number our black car made when it ran 8.95 at 163 mph. Let me remind you all, that regardless of what the dyno says we do have the quickest EVO8 in the world This dyno isn't built to give numbers to brag about, it's built for tuning.

This made me think further about what mine and my brothers car was going to need next. What part was going to hold us back next?

Today I brought my EVO to work. Put it on the dyno. Double checked the tune and dialed the AFR's in nice and flat.

Next step was to install a new fuel rail. Replace the stock one.

When I installed the new rail I put a new stock fuel pressure regulator on my car. The regulator was off an EVO9. Exact same part number. My stock regulator was bent slightly on the return outlet, not sure how that happened.

First pull on the dyno the car was LEANER with the new fuel rail. I was puzzled. I checked the vaccum sourse to the regulator, check air temps, coolant temps. All was the same. Made another pull, same leaner AFR's. At this point I am thinking WTF?! I go get my stock EVO8 pressure regulator and bend the outlet back where it is suppose to be, bolt it back onto the new fuel rail and make another pull. This put the AFR exactly where it was with the stock rail. Conclusion is, the stock fuel rail is good enough for up to 740 whp on our dyno, figure about 890 flywheel or Dynojet power.

Something to add to this. I do not like the stock rail. It appears as though the ends are epoxied on, it is poorly designed inside (although I have to say it works and is olive drab green. For what a fuel rail costs, it's not a horrible thing to spend your money on.

My conclusion to this is the stock fuel system, lines, rail, regulator on the car is a very well designed part. The saddle tanks work excellent, especially if you are autocrossing/roadracing. I personally do not want a race car I drive on the street. I want a street car I can race. That is what I have and I am trying to design parts that make a goal like this more affordable and safer for all of us.
Couple more things. Pricing (of course, since I am know as Buschur the Parts Pusher by some who don't really know me).

The double pumper is $450 if I use two standard Walbro pumps in it. If you have one GSS342 pump already you can subtract $85 from that price. If you have both pumps you can subtract $170.

The double pumper is $750 using both of our Modified High Output Walbro's. If you have already bought one from us subtract $200.

We also have fuel rails now. They are plain anodized black. $165.

Of course we have Fuel pressure regulator kits for the EVO, they are $400.

If you are using all of these components with the stock regulator and run out of fuel with your particular injector, switching the adjustable regulator can fix the problem. My next step will be putting the adjustable regulator back on when I get close to maxing out these 1,000 cc injectors again.

Hope you enjoyed the tech.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:46 AM
Here are some fuel system basics to assist in understanding the choices for upgrading and why upgrades become necessary:

1. Stock fuel pumps provide enough for perhaps 20% higher HP before they're marginal, and should be replaced.

2. With replacement (upgraded) fuel pumps, you get what you pay for. Walbros are not stock OEM quality fuel pumps. Why is that important? Because manufacturers of stock OEM quality pumps have to build them to last at least the warranty period. Denso and Bosch pumps ARE OEM pumps. The Denso 1020 is the Supra T.T. stock OEM pump, and outflows the Walbro, as well as being much quieter. I've never heard of a Denso 1020 pump failing; in contrast, Walbros fail regularly. The Bosch 044 inline pump is another high quality factory Porsche Turbo pump. Both flow substantially more than a Walbro, are quieter, and more reliable. They cost more than a Walbro, too, but you usually only have to buy them once.Â* Concelli used to sell the Supra pumps for about $175.Â* I've found them on E-Bay for that amount recently.Â* The Bosch 044 inline pumps cost about $225-240, depending on where you find them.Â* (Both of these pumps flow substantially more than the Walbros, and they can be used by themselves or together in a dual pump system if you want more reliable parts.)

3. With any replacement fuel pump, wiring to allow increased or constant voltage means increased pumping capacity.Â* Â*Why would you pay a significant amount of money for an upgraded pump and not give it the current it needs to perform? Rewiring is cheap in terms of performance gains. Under bigger load, the issues with lack of current make both factory and aftermarket pumps underperform. Rewire and get the stability and performance the pump is capable of.Â* Make sure you read enough to know how to wire it safely, and use a relay to do it right.

4. Increased boost must be matched by increased fuel pressure in order for your injectors to spray the same amount of fuel that your ECU is calculating. In other words, the boost pressure in the manifold must be overcome by the pressure in the fuel injector in order for anything to come out. The higher the boost, the greater the manifold pressure the injectors must overcome. The fuel pump must be capable of delivering the amount of fuel your engine demands at the pressure that is necessary to compensate for the boost you're running. If your base pressure is 42 lbs. for example, and you run 20 lbs of boost, your pump needs to provide 62 lbs of pressure to "break even" and flow the fuel that your ECU is using for its computations. Make sure the pump you buy is rated for the flow you need at the pressure you're going to need it. See No. 5.

5. Fuel pumps pump LESS than their maximum flow as the pressure increases. You can have very high fuel pressure and VERY LOW flow at the far end of the boost curve. Run lean, buy a new motor. That's why it's useful to know what your fuel system is capable of flowing at the pressures you're going to run. That includes both fuel PRESSURE and fuel VOLUME.

6. Fuel lines from the pump to the rail are often a volume bottleneck. Too small ----> not enough volume of fuel. With high HP motors, go to an AN-6, AN-8, or AN-10 line from the pump to the rail, and the next size down for the return line.

7. Once you know your fuel lines are adequate for the fuel VOLUME your engine will demand, then install an electric fuel pressure gauge and you'll be able to monitor whether your fuel pressure is rising at a 1:1 ratio with your boost. If you have Defi BF gauges, the controller also has a mode where it will compare the two. That's cool!Â* Â*Now you know exactly what the fuel is doing compared to the boost...Â* Fuel pressure gauges under the hood are used for setting and examining your base fuel pressure, but they are quite difficult to read while you're driving :)

8. Upgraded (in volume) fuel rails and Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulators are recommended if you're making sure your fuel system is adequate for your engine's needs. As for the AFPR, see No. 4 above. While factory FPRs may suffice, why would you save $150 and risk your engine? Rails can be a limitation, too, and can also exacerbate fuel pulsing when you're using high volume fuel injectors. Bigger internal rail volume and cutting out the flow restrictions of the factory fittings are other (+) factors in replacing the rail. Not just the bling here, guys.Â* Most of the major EVO vendors offer these parts for sale.Â* There are threads on this board about various fuel rails, for example, and their pros and cons.Â* Find the one that suits your needs the best -- they're all within $50 or so of each other.

8. Single pump systems can fail. If they do, your car stops running because it has no fuel, hopefully before your engine is damaged. Dual pump systems can fail, too. If only one pump fails, and the other keeps pumping, your motor can keep running. If you're not in it, you may be OK. If you are, the continuing fuel supply may cause you to run lean. That's not good.

Several vendors offer upgraded (and dual) pump systems.Â* Â*You can buy the parts themselves cheaper than their systems, but only if you (1) know what you need, and (2) want to take the time to shop around for the best prices on the parts.Â* Summit, Jegs, and other major race parts vendors have most or all of the fuel line parts.Â* Magnus has a huge fuel rail, anodized for methanol use.Â* AMS offers their own rail.Â* You get the idea -- pick and choose and you can select higher grade pumps and not spend as much, if you want to take the time to do so and you have the technical background to make sure you're getting what you need.Â* Otherwise, rely on the shops that have done the testing and put together their own solution.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:47 AM
IIRC, Denso injectors are a pintle type (someone verify this pls, as my memory may not be correct), and are not what I would recommend for a high hp applications

A ball-type injector (e.g. Delphi) gives:

- Quicker response time (better idle quality with a large injector)
- Has typically 10X less moving mass (lasts longer
- Provides superior performance at high duty rates.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:49 AM
I'm very interested in the Denso 1020 Fuel Pump
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm#j3
Just need to see more of what would be involved.

The Denso fuel pump 195130-1020 (the Supra Turbo MKIV pump) is one of the best in-tank upgrade choices if you are using injectors up to 550 cc/min and are providing at least 13 volts to the pump. When 18 volts are supplied, the Supra pump is good for injectors up to 880 cc/min. At 13.5 supplied volts no other in-tank pump, except for the R33 Skyline GT-R and A'PEXi BNR32 fuel pumps, flows significantly more fuel up to 70 psi line pressure or 27 psi boost. It is a direct drop-in replacement; all other non-Denso choices require some modification to the fuel pump assembly. It is as quiet as the stock pump. Best of all, it can cost only $180 at Conicelli Toyota. One disadvantage of the Supra pump is its relatively heavy current draw (at 13.5 V, 16A @ 43 psi, 19A @ 70 psi) and large decrease in flow as supplied voltage lowers. Good, heavy-gauge wiring (meaning re-wiring the fuel pump electrical circuit) is a requirement to get the most out of this pump.


.
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO8 stock. This is a Denso fuel pump, model 195130-3360. It looks similar in size and design to the fuel pump used in the non-turbo 3000GT and Stealth. With a tested flow of 191 lph at 43 psi and 13.5 volts it could be considered a drop-in upgrade for the non-turbo models, but not for the turbo models.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:49 AM
More information:Â*

Stock Evo pump = Denso 195130-3360
Toyota Supra Turbo MKIV = Denso 195130-1020


Denso Fuel Pumps
Denso fuel pumps that have a 50-mm diameter and have part numbers that start with 195130 are direct "drop-in" replacements for the stock pump in all 3S turbo cars and 1st-generation DSM cars (1989-1994). Second-generation DSM cars (1995-1998) and all non-turbo 3S models use a 38-mm diameter Denso pump. My web page 2-fuelpumps.htm compares the turbo and non-turbo 3S fuel pump assemblies.

That's contradictive above^^^


Factory pump in the Lancer Evo8. Flow data from T&HTP.3
Design is like the 3000GT NA pump so an adapter would be
needed for the pickup tube and electrical connection on
TT models. An upgrade for NA cars.Â* Â* Â*

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumps.htm


http://evomoto.com/tech_info.php?tPath=13&tech_id=9&osCsid=6e48d598a405e088e1ef6ea40102aa81


CONCLUSION:Â* THE SUPRA PUMP IS TO BIG TO USE WITH THE STOCK EVO FUEL PUMP HOUSING. IN ADDITION THE EVO PUMP HOUSING IS COMPLETLY DIFFERENT. LOOKS LIKE THE WAHLBRO WILL HAVE TO DO.

trinydex
10-10-2006, 02:50 AM
That's all fine and dandy, but the only way to get the Supra pump to fit
is by performing a complete mutant mickey mouse install for the Evo.
( I researched as I really wanted to install a Supra Denso pump ).

The Evo pump housing is plastic and completely different than VR4 or DSM housings.

I installed the Walbro a couple of weeks ago. So far I hear no noise what-so-ever.
Looking at the Walbro as a whole, it appears to be a real good quality pump.
You can see the metal gears. The only thing I didn't like was the plastic base.

Anyways, for the cost of the Supra pump, I can almost buy three Walbro's.

trinydex
01-11-2007, 12:43 AM
There is a Denso built 245LPH pump in stock 38mm size.Â* (NOTE:Â* this is NOT the Denso Supra TT 50mm pump, that flows like a trooper).Â* AP Boss sells them, and they are built by Denso, in batches of 100 or so, to AP's specifications, and cost around $250 each.

I obtained one for testing, and sent it to RC Engineering for flow testing.Â* At 13.5V, it flows 245 at 35 PSI, and about 220 at 45PSI, decreasing with additional pressure, as most pumps do, to around 167LPH at 75PSI (approximately base fuel pressure + compensation for 30 pounds boost).Â*

By comparison, the Walbro 255HP flows around 220LPH at 75PSI, according to RRE testing.Â* http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumpflowrates.htm

So, the Denso pump does not flow as much fuel at higher pressures as the Walbro does, and certainly not as much as the modified (H.0. from Buschur) Walbro does, but it is a Denso OEM quality pump, which is quiet and I assume has the well known Denso reliability.


Interesting indeed.

At 75psi the PE 245lph flows 55l more than the stock unit, but still 53l down on the Walbro 255lph.

According to the flow rates in the thread below the 210lph outflows the PE 245lph at higher pressure and is only 20l down on the Walbro at 75psi.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=117228&page=4

It would be good if these figures could be varified with another test. I wonder if the 210lph is a high pressure pump, or possibly the figures are incorrect..?

Has anyone tried/tested the Sard 235lph or 265lph pumps? I can't find any details on these and was wondering what size they were and who made them.


so is this a legitimate unit that can be used in the evo?


so....the denso unit would flow a lot less at 75 right? isn't that bad?


Yes.Â* It is 38 mm diameter, and is very likely the same pump that CO_VR4 described.Â* Not sure what electric adapter plug is included with it.


Its less than a Walbro at 75 psi, but still much more than the stock pump.Â* It would be fine for any Evo with a stock turbo.


Still plenty of fuel for most of us:

167 lph = 2.78L/min
1000cc= 1L, so 2.78L/min = 2780cc/min
2780/4 = 695cc/min

So, this pump would still deliver enough fuel at 30 psi of boost to supply 700cc injectors.

Or, to put it another way, assuming a 12:1 AFR, at 30 psi, the pump could support the following amount of mass airflow:

2780cc/min*.76=2112.8g/min fuel
2112.8g/454=4.65 lb/minÂ* fuel
4.65 lb fuel * 12 = 55.8 lb/minÂ* airflow

so, this pump would be able to support 55.8 lb/min of airflow at30 psi boost, or roughly 560HP (at a 12:1 AFR).Â* Should be good up to a turbo with a 55lb/min compressor, which includes 50 trims, 20gLT, some gt30s, etc.

At 11:1, the support would be 4.65*11, or ~51 lb/min of airflow.Â* Still enough for most of the turbos mentioned above.


Eric


Among other things, you've ignored the concept of injector duty cycle.

Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) for a turbocharged engine isÂ* 0.6 lbs of fuel per hour per horsepower (or higher).Â* Â*So, for a 400HP motor you'd need 400 x 0.6 lbs, or 240 lbs of fuel.Â* If you're using higher octane, it weighs approximately 6 lbs/gallon, so figure 40 gallons of fuel.Â* Forty gallons of fuel = 152 liters.Â* 152 liters/60 equals 2.53 liters per minute, or 2530 ccs/minute.Â* Divide by 4 injectors, and you get 633 ccs/minute injectors at 100% duty cycle.Â* You don't want to do that, so you make sure you calculate no more than a 80% duty cycle.Â* 633 / .8 = 791cc/minute injectors.

If you figure the BSFC is higher (richer mixture for safety), figure .65.Â* The same calculations (for 400 HP) then yield 400 x .65, or 260 lbs fuel/hour, or 43.3 gallons/hr which equals 164 liters per hour.Â* 164 liters/hr = 2.73 liters/minute, 2730 ccs/min /4= 683cc/min x .8 = 854cc/minute injectors needed.

If you assume 500HP, scale the above up by 25%, making the fuel demands 325 lbs per hour; 54.2 gallons per hour; 205 liters/hour; 3.42 liters/minute; 3420 ccs/minute; 854ccs/injector at 100%; 1067cc/minute injectors at 80% duty cycle.

If you need a certain volume of fuel to make the HP target you're assuming, that volume has to be available at the boost pressure you need to make the HP.Â* If you are increasing the manifold pressure by 30PSI, then you have to increase the fuel pressure by the same amount in order for the injectors to have the same flow characteristics.Â* So, for example, if you need 30 PSI boost to make the HP, you need to find out whether the fuel pump and delivery system will produce the flow volume at 75PSI (base pressure + 30 lbs. boost).

NOTE:Â* Most fuel supply calculations suggest a 20% surplus built into the supply system to make sure you don't run lean at the margins.

The Denso 245 pump I had tested flows 167 liters/hour at 75 PSI.Â* As shown above, a 400HP motor needs 164 liters per hour (with no safety surplus built into the equation).Â* If you design in the 20% safety margin, the fuel supply is 20% low at 400 HP with this pump.Â* If you're looking to make 500HP, a single pump setupÂ* using this pump won't satisfy your motor's requirements, and you risk running lean and grenading your motor.Â*

The same methodology can be applied to the Walbro 255HP, which RRE measured as flowing 220 liters/hour at 75 PSI.Â* That would be sufficient for a 400HP car with a safety margin, but is very close to total pumping volume with no safety margin at 500HP, which requires 205 liters/hour.

This explains why Dave Buschur reported that his 575HP motor was running out of fuel, even on his upgraded single Walbro 255HO pump, and why he picked up 50 HP when he figured it out and went to a dual pump system.

trinydex
01-12-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey David,

The EVO does have a fuel filter located on the other side of the thank that is replaceable by itself. The part # is MB129895 and costs about $6.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/fuel/fuel_filter_pump.gif
http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/fuel/fuel_filter_disassembly.gif


It is however, small and not the best screen, so the inline filter you supply would probably work much better in your application. :)

trinydex
01-13-2007, 01:35 AM
trinydex,

The pump can flow enough for more than 400 HP, meaning flywheel HP of course.Â* Use drivetrain losses for your AWD car to find what that would mean in terms of whp.

Even though CO_VR4 doesn't realize it, my crude calculation took BSFC into account.Â* That is where the ~10 HP per 1 lb/min of airflow came from.Â* BSFC is just in units of lb/min fuel per HP.Â* I was using the general rule of thumb using a BSFC of .55 and and AFR of 11.1.Â* If you do the simple math (.55/60*11), that give just about .1lb/min of airflow for 1 HP, or multiply by 10 to get ~10 HP for every 1lb/min of airflow.

If you want to take a conservative approach, you can assume and a .6 BSFC, you can assume ~9 HP per lb/min of airflow.Â* So, the calculations above still come out to ~500 HP and ~460 HP, respectively for the limits of the pump.Â* Again, this is in engine HP.

CO-VR4 added in a general rule of thumb to leave about 20% of room for your injectors, but that is your call.Â* Many people run their injectors at 100%, some like them better at 80%.Â* Since they will be there for a very short timeframe, more people are concerend with idle characteristics and don't choose overly large injectors.Â* But, to each their own.Â* Anyway, you asked a question about the capabilities of the pump, not injectors.

There are more variables to take into effect whether the pump should be ran in your car or not, like knowing the exact boost you will run and knowing the exact flow rates of the pump at different voltages, etc, but from the posted flow rates in this thread, my calculations should still hold true.Â* And of course, it would be a bad idea to run a fuel pump to it's limits, especially time and time again.Â* But, again, I was simply showing what mass of airflow that mass of fuel flow could support and equating that to a HP number.


Eric


Eric has his opinions, and is entitled to them.Â* But facts are facts, and usually trump opinions.Â* That's why you need to understand the assumptions people make to come up with their conclusions.Â* Eric has now explained that he used a BSFC of .55.Â* I used a BSFC of .60 and .65, which is the standard range for turbocharged engines.Â* The difference is .10/.65 or 15% in fuel use assumptions just in that part of the calculation.Â* Eric's is 15% lower.Â* If his assumption is too low, you run lean.Â* If mine is too high, the excess fuel is bypassed and returned to the tank.Â* :)

When considering what a reasonable fuel system is for a stock or mildly modified Evo, you can use a Walbro 255 with no problems, because it will supply the fuel volume at lower boost pressures that your engine demands.Â* If you think you modifications will result in the potential for going upwards of 500HP, that is no longer true.Â* This is where I pointed out why I disagree with Eric's comments.

Testing conclusively shows that one Walbro 255 will not support a 500HP motor safely -- that is, without starting to lose the capability to provide sufficient volume at the needed pressure, and running lean.Â* For that matter, one Buschur modified Walbro High Output pump, which flows much better than the stock Walbro, won't do the job upwards of 525HP, as Buschur's testing showed some months ago, when he finally identified the problem and picked up 50HP just by correcting his fuel system limitations with no other changes.Â* The Denso 245 fuel pump which I had flow tested flows less at 75PSI than the stock Walbro, and much less than the Buschur modified Walbro.Â* I love Denso pumps, which is why I obtained it and had it tested.Â* I'm not dissing the Denso pump, just pointing out that it is not an alternative for a higher HP Evo fuel system.Â* It would be a reasonable substitute for the stock system pump, or a mildly modded Evo.

Look at Buschur's long explanation of his testing results found here -- http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=245064Â* You'll see that whatever theory shows, when the rubber meets the road cars that don't have a fuel system that provides a safety margin in volume at the pressure needed go lean.Â* His testing shows that the standard Walbro 255 won't support higher HP Evos and that the HO Walbro has its limitations around 500HP. When you go lean on the street, not on a dyno, and there's nobody watching the A/F ratios on a wideband like a hawk, you go "BOOM".

Why would you scrimp on a fuel system when it's critical for the longevity of your motor, as well as for making optimum use of the other expensive parts you bought to improve performance?Â* Do it right, and oversize it so it cannot be a worry or a unidentified limitation.



CO-VR4,

I think you're missing the whole point of my explanations and calculations.Â* I simply showed what mass of fuel is needing for what mass of airflow.Â* Plain and simple.

Now, if you wanted my opinion on whether this pump should be used in a car, that totally changes.Â* There are a lot of factors to take into consideration, as well as safety margins, etc.Â* I think we are actually agreeing on a lot of this, but you are misunderstanding what I am saying.Â* I think part of the confusion is that too many people talk in terms of HP, instead of mass airflow or mass fuel flow.Â* HP from one person to the next, from one dyno to the next, from wheel HP to flywheel HP, varies dramatically.Â* One person may be talking about wheel HP on a mustang dyno like Buschur's and one may be talking about flywheel HP, or engine HP.Â* That's why I don't really like to talk in terms of HP...it adds way too much confusion for a lot of people.Â* That's why I showed what mass of airflow the pump would support.Â* The last step I tried to equate that to a HP 'number' using general rules of thumb.Â* Again, even here, if I am talking about flywheel HP and you are talking about whp on a mustang dyno, the numbers could be 30% apart from each other.

Actually, since you mentioned Buschur's testing, that would be a good case in point.Â* I read that thread as well, and if you look into the data, the 'HP' numbers that he is using don't add up either.Â* But, then again, what exact HP is he talking about?Â* Let me explain:


This is a quote from that thread:


This is another quote from that thread:


So, he states that his HO pump at 80 psi fuel pressure (about 36.5 psi boost assuming base FP) flows 310 lb/hr fuel.Â* At a 12.5:1 AFR, that means that it can match 310*12.5=3875lb/hr of air.Â* Or to change this into more usable units (lb/min), we get 3875/60=64.6 lb/min of air.Â* Dave states that this 310 lb/hr of fuel is good for '412 flywheel HP'.Â* Notice he didn't say whp on his dyno.Â* 412 flywheel HP on his dyno is more around like 310 whp, right, assuming about a 25% correction factor?Â*

Well, that doesn't add up at all, does it?.Â* 65 lb/min of airflow should be roughly (again using my rule of thumb of 10 HP per lb/min) equal to about 650 HP (flywheel HP).Â* And Dave said that he ran out of fuel at 542 wheel HP on his dyno.Â* Reversing the 25% correction factor, that is about 720 flywheel HP. So, if I were to guess Dave was either running more than base fuel pressrue or more than about 35 psi on base fuel pressure on that run.Â* He was probably flowing more around 70 lb/min of mass airflow.Â* But there are too many factors to simply guess.Â* AFR, fuel used, fuel pressure, boost, etc, etc.

The numbers are right there, though.Â* He roughly had 720 flywheel HP on his car when he maxed out his single HO pump.Â* Yet, he states that this pump is only good to 412 flywheel HP at 80 psi fuel pressure.Â* He may have even been higher than that on his run...I don't know.Â* But, that would mean the pump would support even less HP.Â* So, something doesn't add up, not even close.Â* I actually sent him a PM to explain this, so I wouldn't 'mess up' his thread.


Eric


Dave B. did not support the 525HP in his car without major work arounds.Â* If you'll review his prior posts, I asked him about that.Â* He responded that he had done major changes in the standalone fuel tables enriching the duty cycles in order to keep his A/Fs where he wanted them.Â* When he made the pump change, his A/F went way rich, because the earlier system had not been providing sufficient volume at the pressure he was running.Â* When he had the volume that the standalone was assuming, his A/F went to 9:1, and he had to revise his fuel table and injector duty cycles back to put his A/Fs where they should have been.

The pump simply did not keep up with the motor, and when he went to the dual pump setup, he solved the lack of fuel problem.


Whatever 'workarounds' he did with the fuel tables or inecjtor duty has nothing to do with the max capabilities of the pump.Â* I'm going off of his own quotes here.Â* It doesn't matter if you hold the injectors open 100% duty cycle....if the pump can't keep up, it can't keep up.

What I'm saying is that the numbers aren't even close to adding up right.Â* He said that at 80 psi fuel pressure, the HO pump will flow 310lb/hr fuel, and according to him that is 412 FLYWHEEL HP.Â* That's about 41-42 lb/min of airflow.Â* Yet, he dynoed his car at 542 WHEEL HP on his own low reading mustange dyno.

That equates to probably in the neighborhood of 70 lb/min of airflow.Â* Do you see what I am getting at?Â* If one HO pump could only support what he claims, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to dynoing 542 whp on his dyno.


Eric


What are you saying is not possible without a standalone?Â* I can increase my injector pulsewidths without a standalone.Â* Your open loop fuel maps in the ECU control your injector pulsewidths, and thus the duty cycles of the injectors.Â* All you need is ECUFlash and some general tuning knowledge.

But, I think that we agree here.Â* Even running that inejctors at 100% duty cycle won't matter if the pump can't provide enough fuel.



I totally agree.

trinydex
01-14-2007, 11:44 AM
I obtained and flow tested the 38mm Denso fuel pump that AP Boss offers.Â* It fits in the stock Evo fuel pump assembly without modification, since the stock pump is 38mm in diameter as well.Â* That is the pump that I've referenced in this thread.Â*

The other Denso pump is the 50mm TT Supra pump, often known as the 1020Â* The Supra Denso is fatter than the stock pump, and you'd have to modify the stock fuel assembly to fit it, as the stock pump slides into a molded plastic cylinder that is about the same 38mm diameter as the stock pump.

The AMS 1000HP kit uses a 38mm Walbro in the tank, and a fuel hose siphon and sock connected to an external Walbro pump to configure their dual pump setup.Â* The AMS setup connects the two pumps with a "Y" nitrous fitting to the -8AN line so they run in parallel to the front of the car.Â* The AMS system thus does not cut the 38mm cylinder housing the pump in the fuel assembly.

The Buschur dual pump setup puts two pumps in the tank, and appears to cut the fuel sender assembly to do so, attaching the pumps to the fuel sender assembly with a big hose clamp.

The Full Blown dual pump setup puts two pumps in the tank, with a custom CNC upper assembly, completely replacing the stock factory sender assembly except for transfering the fuel level sender and another part from the stock assembly, but uses an anodized aluminium lower section that is shaped to accept the pump diameters.Â* I assume that it is approximately 38mm in diameter, cut in half.

The question that has not been answered is if there's room for a 50mm dual pump in either the Buschur or the Full Blown setups.

You could put the Supra pump intank in the Full Blown setup in a single pump configuration (or a Bosch 044 or any other pump of your choice) if Full Blown made available a custom lower housing that supported the diameter of the substitute pump.



The Supra TT fuel pump has proven to be OEM quiet and much more reliable than the Walbro 255.Â* You can find flow volume at pressure comparisons with a web search.Â* In summary, they show that the Supra pump flows more than the Walbro 255 up to 65PSI, and about the same till 85PSI (stock base pressure + 40PSI boost pressure compensation).Â* The Walbro flows a little more above that level, but very few people would care, as they don't often run more than 40 PSI of boost.Â* :)

trinydex
01-14-2007, 08:24 PM
OK, so I was just sitting at home relaxing, since Sunday is my day off. Somehow i always get suckered into going back to the shop on my days off. I was so curious with how the pumps flowed with different lines and if the 2 pumps actually fight eachother when they are switched on,that i couldnt take it anymore and went to work. This is not a high tech/precision measuring system or anything but it gets close results. You will see what i am talking about when you see the pics.
:)

First, I am going to list all the conversion and measurements along with flow ratings of the walbro 255lph pumps.


Walbro GSS-342 High Pressure 255LPH Tested at 12.5 volts

Tested at 12.5 volts

PSI.........Amps..........Liters/hr
43..........7.5..............233.4
58...........9................210.10
73...........11..............189.3

Tested at 14 volts

PSI.........Amps..........Liters/hr
43..........7.5..............264.4
58...........9................242.9
73...........11..............220.3

** these numbers were taken off another site. I did not do this test.


Good things to know

-There are 3.79 liters in a Gallon

- (1) Gallon of gasoline weighs approximently 6lbs

- There are 16 ounces in a lbs

Ok lets go...!

The test that I ran I used 0 psi ( i had no time to make a system to test against pressure), as you can see from the flow chart above, as pressure increases the volume decreases. Here is the test that i did.

Here is the test equipment I used..

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture049Medium-1.jpg

I weighed all my containers before they were filled up with gasoline and then weighted them after with 4 gallons in each.

Container................Empty weight............. With 4 gallons of gasoline inside

Blue fuel container........2lbs 8oz...................26lbs 8 oz.
Brown tubaware...........3lbs 8oz....................27lbs 10oz.

Pretty darn close to that 6lbs of weight per gallon of fuel configurations eh? By the way i didnt make that up. I researched and it seems alot of people agreed that 1 gallon of gasoline at 60 degree room temp weighs 6lbs.


Next, I hooked the battery up to my truck with a jumper cable and kept the truck running so that we have consistant voltage at all times. The voltage were consistant between 14.3-14.2 volts at all times

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture057Medium-1.jpg

Heres the little bad boy ready for testing, I am going to be testing with our stock fuel line kit and then with the -10 AN stainless kit

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture059Medium.jpg


Here he is inside the tank

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture061Medium.jpg

First test I am going to run a 5/16 fuel line from the Full Blown Twin Pump to the bucket that i will be measuring with my scale, and timed with a stop watch. I started timing as soon as I see the first sign of fuel coming out the line.

Here is the results of the FBM Twin Pump with just a single pump on for 1 min

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture069Medium.jpg

Now here is the results with both pump kicked on for 1 min

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture066Medium-1.jpg

Well, you guys are probally like DUH!! two pumps mean double the volume. This just proved that no they are not fighting eachother. Atleast not at 0psi of pressure. Please pay attention it could change later :D


Ok, now off to the -10 stainless kit. Oh by the way, both of the lines were cut to 3 feet long to keep it fair, plus i made sure that non of the lines were resting on the bucket that was being weighed.

Here is the FBM Pump with the -10 Stainless kit

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture068Medium.jpg

Ok Now on to the results for the -10 stainless with a single pump turned on, same as the test with the single pump

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture063Medium.jpg

Finally we have the test with both pumps on with the -10 kit

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture070Medium.jpg



So with the both pumps on, the -10 kit flows about 1 extra lb of fuel then the setup that has the stock lines configured. Lets break it down

1 gallon of fuel = 6 lbs

The Duo pump with the -10 flowed 18lbs per minute.

18 lbs x 60mins = 1080lbs per hour

There are 3.79 liters in a gallon

1080lbs / 6 = 180 gallons

180 gallons x 3.79 literes = 682.2 LPH

If we plug 17 into the equation instead of 18 for the stock line. We get 644.3 LPH

**** you guys may say man these numbers are outragous, but remember the test was done without pressure applied. I will test it againest pressure one of these days, but this took me all day to do. haha

So the results are...

-With a single pump on with the stock line or the -10 the results are the same.

- With both pumps on the the -10 flowed 37.9LPH more then the stock line kit.

And remeber this test is not super accurate but its good enough. Plus all the test were done with 0 pressure. Some of you are probally saying, Hell 37.9LPH is not that much of a difference but look below :D


Here is a pic of the -10 with both pumps on, ahhhh.... its almost like someone is pouring you a nice cup of tea

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture072Medium-1.jpg



Now the stock line unit, Holy cow its like a fricken horse pissing in your cup of tea!!! I actually got some fuel that bounce off the surface and hit my face cause i wasnt aware of the pressure

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture074Medium-1.jpg

Conclusion, both pumps are not fighting eachother in the test. Also I think the stock line will work just as well as the -10 setup. But i dont know if it can compare to the -10 as pressure increases. Im sure you can make tons of power off the stock lines but e85 requires about 30% more volume then gasoline does and those stock lines might not cut it. This setup will work in any way you want it. We offer them in both configurations. Stock lines or -10. You can use it with any type of fuel you like, c16, e85, pump gas, anything you like. If I am wrong with any of the info, please correct me. I just did the test and computed some numbers. I am not claiming that i am right but this is just my opinion based on a test {thumbup}

trinydex
01-14-2007, 08:24 PM
Ok guys, I have gotten quite a bit of pms asking if the dual pump setup will work with stock lines. I apologize that it took this long to post it up. I was quite busy with the srt unit, but its finally here!! Here is the kit, please note that the filter is not in the picture yet. The filter that i originally opt to use is not going to cut it. I will have the new one by wends. Price for the upgrade is between $30-$40 with the filter, or $10 without the filter. Thanks L J

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture042Medium-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture043Medium.jpg

The unit installed in the car
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/pumpfactorylines.jpg


Heres a few of them ready to be assembled.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture044Medium-1.jpg


Best part about it is the factory one is still usuable.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture047Medium-1.jpg



As with most parts, there are pros and cons. Heres what I can think of..

Pros

1. Like mention above, you can always convert back to stock.

2. If you dont want to convert back to stock you can sell your stock sending unit. (The dealership wants a pretty penny for them)

3. You have the choice to upgrade to stainless AN lines if you like

4. You can retain factory lines now.

5. THe anodized piece is e85 safe.

Cons

1. You have to tap 3-4 wires. The good news is, its super easy to do (itll take you maybe 2 mins to do). Plus all the hardware, t taps, male connectors are included.

2. You have to drive around with your seat off for others to see it :D

3. If you get the anodized one , it only comes in purple for now. Some people might make fun of you. But the chicks love it :D jk (ok... i wasnt kidding)

trinydex
01-15-2007, 07:56 PM
The Denso 38mm fuel pump sold here by AP Boss Ltd. was sent to RC Engineering and flow tested. Here are the results:

PSI ------- LBs/Hour ---------- Liters/Hour
35 399 244
40 380 232
45 (43 base pressure) 362 221
50 7 352 215
55 12 333 203
60 17 323 197
65 22 305 186
70 27 289 176
75 32 274 167
80 37 256 156
85 42 236 144
90 47 230 140
95 52 217 132
100 199 121
105 184 112
110 169 103

This is the 38mm Denso pump that fits in the stock fuel sender assembly, not the Denso Supra TT pump, which is a 50mm diameter pump.

trinydex
01-22-2007, 10:24 PM
Ok guys, you asked for it and here it is :) Since some of you guys love the denso supra pumps. I was able to redo the piece to hold 2 densos. This housing is made for the denso, all the ports have been moved around to accomidate the denso pumps. The walbro unit is still the same, this is not a replacement for the walbro design, it is just an alternative for those who wish to use the denso ones. I have another pump on order so i will post a pic of the whole thing put together later. These will be ready to ship next week, i am just waiting on the modified float valve bracket. The price for the assembly is the same as the walbro ones ($399). I had to buy 2 pumps from the dealer to design this application. The pumps are for sale as well since i am done with them. I will sell them for what i paid for them with my discount, please pm me for a price on the pumps. Also, please let me know if you guys have any questions. Thanks L J{thumbup}

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/evopics008Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/evopics007Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/evopics006Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/evopics005Medium.jpg

trinydex
02-01-2007, 07:38 PM
Youve got it!!Â* Thanks toÂ* Julio (jmartinez1170)Â* for making this possible.Â* At first I thought he was crazy.Â* Well... I kinda still think so haha jk,Â* anyways I have faith in what hes doing and I wish him the best of luck.Â* When he first saw the dual pump, I got a phone call from him imediately asking if i could squeeze another one in there.Â* I thought about it but I didnt think much of it to be honest ,butÂ* then he contacted me again, and I thought to myself, man this guy is serious.Â* All i know is that alot of things are possible if you are willing to crack at it with determination.Â* I know theres going to be alot of people hating and saying youll never need that much fuel but I hope he proves everyone wrong :DÂ* Â*It alsoÂ* looks like i just strapped a pump to the dual assembly but I actually had to rework some stuff around to make it work.Â* For the guys who haveÂ* already bought the dual from me, Im sorry but you cannot modify the dual to work.Â* I know AMS said that they maxed their fuel system out on one of their cars so Im guessing 2 walbros intanks can be maxed out?Â* Correct me if im wrong but I thought i read somewhere that they maxed a intanks and a inline out.Â* Â*Well heres the pics and again thanks toÂ* Â*JulioÂ* for being the first to push all of us to another limit.Â* Supras got nothing on us!! Ok maybe they do but we can have 3 pumps too {thumbup}

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture081Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture080Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture083Medium.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p16/fullblown2k/Picture082Medium.jpg

Mokaone
02-11-2007, 06:32 PM
The HorsepowerFreaks long awaited Fuel system is ready for sale. Our kit uses only the highest quality components from Full-Blown, Walbro, Earls, and Aeromotive Components. This kit has NO core returns, no wait time, and does NOT reuse any of the restrictive factory fuel line. This system will flow more than two pumps in series! Get the ultimate fuel system for your evo that you'll NEVER have to upgrade. The Hose/hose end assemblies come pre-assembled and cut to the perfect length. All kits come with CD installation instructions that are also downloadable from HPF. Kit does not come with Fuel injectors!!! Wiring kit now shown either.

Exploded view of components
[img]Close up of Regulator and Rail[/b]
(picture attached)


Base kit comes with...
Billet Fuel pump hanger
Earls Stainless steel braided line
Earls Aluminum AN fittings
Aeromotive Evo Fuel rail
Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator (-10AN inlet Ports/-6AN return port)
Russel Fuel pressure guage
All necessary wiring and relays
Mounting Accessories and fasteners

Options include...
Upgraded -10AN feed
1 or 2 additional 255lph In-tank Walbro pumps

Base price with no pumps $1,217.39

-Eric Urness
HorsepowerFreaks