Random Musings with Terry S...

[Terry S]

So I got to thinking last night on my long nightly drive home. I realize none of this is new stuff, and there are many before me who have hashed and rehashed this line of though, but I wanted to get some external SoCalEvo input about this topic.

A human being is defined by its intelligence over other species and by its individual recognition (I think, therefore I am bullshit).

Our intelligence is laid out very similarly to how modern computers are handled (not coincidentally). Intelligence is broken into how well we can process and cross-process (analyzing) information (like a CPU), how well we can retain knowledge and experiences (like a HD), how well we can reference said info on demand (like RAM), and lastly, how much information and experiences we are exposed to (like the core programing and other software programs).

If you notice, that pretty much lays it all out. Self realization can even fall into the analytical section of intelligence since self realization requires the processing of information as compared to the experiences and knowledges of the world around us.

One big point to note is that this clearly eliminates the possibility of a "soul" that controls it all.

We don't need one to operate. We don't need one to control our thoughts or our bodies, thats what the brain and its application of intelligence does.

Proof of this lies with brain damage either from external or natural forces (such as genetic diseases). An individuals intelligence levels can be severely impacted with damage to the brain. On the external side, a great example are paralyzed patients who cant speak but can clearly think as good as they could prior to the accident. They damaged their brain in areas that affect the physical performance of their body but the intelligence was minimally impacted. But cross compare that against those who are all Terri Shaivo'ed and you can see how their intelligence is so severely destroyed that they cannot process jack squat let alone do the bare minimums to keep themselves alive. Thats not "soul damage" thats brain damage. The brain controls intelligence.

And yes, the brain is just a lump of organic material governed by the rules and laws of organic chemistry, albeit incredibly complex and nanoscopic.

A great comparison for the vastness of how complex it is, is to compare it against the universe. Almost all of the stars you see in the sky at night in a dark place are from stars in our galaxy. Hundreds of billions of stars. Yes, Billions. Then take into account that we have found billions of galaxies in the universe so far (and we keep finding more and more every year). We've looked over 14 billion light years away. And its galaxies everywhere, even in the "dark spots". Now count how many life-potential planets there are in the universe. Thats about how difficult it is to figure out all the chemical connections in our brain.

We need no soul, we have no soul. It's a nice happy thought to make those of us who need it feel better. It sounds to me like the Catholics should "Lent" themselves of the idea of a soul for 40 days and see how well it fits their lives.

/rant

begin discussion.

Terry S

[RPD_FKTARD]

oh my gosh i have no soul :(

nobody can proof that we have one anyways.

[x[corwyn]]

Deep thoughts with Jack Handy...

Seriously, the processes between a computer thats out today with how it works and how our minds are very dissimilar. I dont mean by the components (IE silicone vs organic) but by the very way they process information. With a computer it takes a lot of small instructions and step by step programming to produce a complex action. A computer is very very dumb, but very fast.

A human mind is absolutely incredible in its capacity. Everyday we take a complex action that we want, and the mind breaks it down to the small actions to make that happen. Exactly the opposite of a computer. What we tell the brain is what it goes out to make happen. You are snowboarding for instance, and are just hauling butt, doing well, and then realise "I'm going too fast, I'm going to fall" odds are you will fall. Not because you were really out of control, its because you thought and it made it happen.

Another example if take the actions you need at the track. You have to look all the way through the corner. Part of it is to see where you are going, but what you really are doing is feeding the input to the brain of the actions and letting it automate your actions. It works better than looking closer and reacting step by step.

As for the concept of a soul. I have always maintained that everything is far stranger and more deeper than we can imagine. Is there more to this life? I sincerely believe that there is. Is it what organized religion maintains? I doubt it. All organized religions have been created and maintained by men. The Bible? Koran? Vedes? All written by men. I find the concept of having an open mind and treating everyone well far more worthy than having a set faith in a religion that while sure reads cool, and sure makes for cool movies....I have never seen anything in life that would confirm the facts and faith put forth. Scientific fact has been pretty good about debunking a lot of the events and correlations that the Bible puts forth. The only retorts have been that God is tricking us and has made the earth seem older than it really is. Yea that makes sense.............

What I do see is petty people bickering over details on how best they can subjugate, or tell people what to do because their religion said so. Religion is an outmoded tool that we outgrew centuries ago. In this day and age, those concepts are getting in the way of us obtaining true enlightenment and growing spiritually and intellectually greater than at any other time in our history.

As for a soul. Is there a Heaven and hell? I dont think so. If you really think about it its a very simplistic thought process. Do good and be pure and you go to Heaven. Be bad and you go to Hell. Its almost childish in its simplicity. Is there something after we die? Yea. I guess one way or another we will find out.

[kEvo VIII]

You think too much.
Not everything has an explanation, and not everything is to be analyzed and understood.



. Yes, Billions. Then take into account that we have found billions of galaxies in the universe so far (and we keep finding more and more every year). We've looked over 14 billion light years away. And its galaxies everywhere, even in the "dark spots".

Have we? I dont think it is possible for us to look 14 billion light years away.

[kEvo VIII]

]
Deep thoughts with Jack Handy...

Seriously, the processes between a computer thats out today with how it works and how our minds are very dissimilar. I dont mean by the components (IE silicone vs organic) but by the very way they process information. With a computer it takes a lot of small instructions and step by step programming to produce a complex action. A computer is very very dumb, but very fast.

A human mind is absolutely incredible in its capacity. Everyday we take a complex action that we want, and the mind breaks it down to the small actions to make that happen. Exactly the opposite of a computer. What we tell the brain is what it goes out to make happen. You are snowboarding for instance, and are just hauling butt, doing well, and then realise "I'm going too fast, I'm going to fall" odds are you will fall. Not because you were really out of control, its because you thought and it made it happen.

Another example if take the actions you need at the track. You have to look all the way through the corner. Part of it is to see where you are going, but what you really are doing is feeding the input to the brain of the actions and letting it automate your actions. It works better than looking closer and reacting step by step.

As for the concept of a soul. I have always maintained that everything is far stranger and more deeper than we can imagine. Is there more to this life? I sincerely believe that there is. Is it what organized religion maintains? I doubt it. All organized religions have been created and maintained by men. The Bible? Koran? Vedes? All written by men. I find the concept of having an open mind and treating everyone well far more worthy than having a set faith in a religion that while sure reads cool, and sure makes for cool movies....I have never seen anything in life that would confirm the facts and faith put forth. Scientific fact has been pretty good about debunking a lot of the events and correlations that the Bible puts forth. The only retorts have been that God is tricking us and has made the earth seem older than it really is. Yea that makes sense.............

What I do see is petty people bickering over details on how best they can subjugate, or tell people what to do because their religion said so. Religion is an outmoded tool that we outgrew centuries ago. In this day and age, those concepts are getting in the way of us obtaining true enlightenment and growing spiritually and intellectually greater than at any other time in our history.

As for a soul. Is there a Heaven and hell? I dont think so. If you really think about it its a very simplistic thought process. Do good and be pure and you go to Heaven. Be bad and you go to Hell. Its almost childish in its simplicity. Is there something after we die? Yea. I guess one way or another we will find out.

well put.

[x[corwyn]]

You think too much.
Not everything has an explanation, and not everything is to be analyzed and understood.



. Yes, Billions. Then take into account that we have found billions of galaxies in the universe so far (and we keep finding more and more every year). We've looked over 14 billion light years away. And its galaxies everywhere, even in the "dark spots".

Have we? I dont think it is possible for us to look 14 billion light years away.


Over 14 billion might be tough... by I know 13 billion+ has been done.

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2004/28/image/a

[Terry S]

Chad, your post was a perfect example how the human brain processes information just like a computer. Both your track day and snowboarding examples fit my explanation very well. Again, i'm not saying our brains dont handle more information than a computer, but its the same general results.

And i'll try to find my reference for the looking back in time thing. Although i'm pretty sure I was overshooting it by a billion years or so. In fact, I think TIME magazine (not my subscription. I dont support that communist joke media) ran an article about it within the last few months.

Terry S

[x[corwyn]]

Chad, your post was a perfect example how the human brain processes information just like a computer. Both your track day and snowboarding examples fit my explanation very well. Again, i'm not saying our brains dont handle more information than a computer, but its the same general results.

And i'll try to find my reference for the looking back in time thing. Although i'm pretty sure I was overshooting it by a billion years or so. In fact, I think TIME magazine (not my subscription. I dont support that communist joke media) ran an article about it within the last few months.

Terry S


By any technical definition the brain is a computer. People are looking to try to duplicate how the brain works through various means. Our everyday computers though work almost exactly opposite of how brains work though. If I have more time I will try to detail it better and even illustrate it. It was something that I was reading about several months back and was pretty impressed with the article.

[Terry S]

]


Chad, your post was a perfect example how the human brain processes information just like a computer. Both your track day and snowboarding examples fit my explanation very well. Again, i'm not saying our brains dont handle more information than a computer, but its the same general results.

And i'll try to find my reference for the looking back in time thing. Although i'm pretty sure I was overshooting it by a billion years or so. In fact, I think TIME magazine (not my subscription. I dont support that communist joke media) ran an article about it within the last few months.

Terry S


By any technical definition the brain is a computer. People are looking to try to duplicate how the brain works through various means. Our everyday computers though work almost exactly opposite of how brains work though. If I have more time I will try to detail it better and even illustrate it. It was something that I was reading about several months back and was pretty impressed with the article.


Definitely find the article because i'm pretty convinced otherwise... lol

Terry S

[DTunedEvoX]

I cant believe I read all that shit Terry ...

[Terry S]

I cant believe I read all that shit Terry ...


:D Your welcome.

Terry S

[RPD_FKTARD]

if only humans have OBDII ports...

[x[corwyn]]

if only humans have OBDII ports...


Actually I was thinking it would be awesome to get a USB Port or bluetooth to some external storage for increased knowledge. Imagine wanting to know a part number or how to replace your clutch in your car... You can just plug in and access the data. I bet in a few decades that will be possible because thats really the next evolutionary step is getting better, faster, more intuitive access to your data.

[Terry S]

]


if only humans have OBDII ports...


Actually I was thinking it would be awesome to get a USB Port or bluetooth to some external storage for increased knowledge. Imagine wanting to know a part number or how to replace your clutch in your car... You can just plug in and access the data. I bet in a few decades that will be possible because thats really the next evolutionary step is getting better, faster, more intuitive access to your data.


And we're not like computers becauuuuuse....

Terry S

[x[corwyn]]

]


if only humans have OBDII ports...


Actually I was thinking it would be awesome to get a USB Port or bluetooth to some external storage for increased knowledge. Imagine wanting to know a part number or how to replace your clutch in your car... You can just plug in and access the data. I bet in a few decades that will be possible because thats really the next evolutionary step is getting better, faster, more intuitive access to your data.


And we're not like computers becauuuuuse....

Terry S


I said not like modern computers. Right now a modern computer uses a Processor, memory, and permanent storage all seperately along a very limited data path, with very limited programming parameters that cannot grow within its own sphere of influence.

A human mind is capable of so much more than you give it credit for. Without a single input or thought it handles all our autonomic systems, is able to handle conscious thought and movement in once single organ. It can store memory that can be recalled and processed far more efficently and greater than any supercomputer. The capacity for learning is incredible. The brain does not function on logic alone, it also is based off of emotional experience.

Physically the brain is one organ that is processor, ram, physical drive space, peripheral hookup, and is all in one with the main advantage of having over 100 billion interconnections which not only increase the speed, but also develop learned pathways towards interoperability.

Although people praise a computer for its ability to multitask, the human brain also exceeds that capability as well. The human being in one movement of typing on this keyboard exceeds the capabilities of any supercomputers and probably the processing power of all of them combined, from the shear activity, and logical processes that go with that. No computer could ever do reliably, smoothly, and effortlessly the day to day activities we take for granted.

The day that computers can ever truly be compared with a human mind will either be a truly great day for us, or a really bad day.

What I am talking about is more of a cyborg arrangement, where we augment our present capabilities. However if we actually learned how to tap the full capabilities of our brains, we would have no need for the child toys those augmentations represent.

[Ricardon]

I'd have to agree with Chad on the our minds work the opposite of how computers work bit. Now I'm definitely not as articulate and tend to speak in absolutes a lot, so maybe I'm not best equiped to enter into this debate. I do however agree that the human mind works in reverse of the way computers work, with the examples that Chad gave. Computers take basic intructions, and turn those basic instructions into complex processes. From what I have been able to gather, the human brain does the exact opposite. We have input, we see a complex task ahead of us, and our brain then breaks that input down into more basic instructions so that we can perform the desired process.

I do agree with Terry that the basic function is the same, it makes total sense. Especially considering that man has been trying to reproduce, through computers, how the human mind works for such a long time. I would'nt say that it is impossible, but I don't see us actually being able to produce a computer that can work in the way described above.

I'll give a bit of a more specific example. We have all heard it before, and if any of you have ever been involved in very high level athletics, you will get what I'm about to say (by high level I mean a major collegiate or professional sport). There have been times where I have been to the point of absolute complete physical exhaustion. I mean, to the point where I have to be helped off the ground, everyone of my teammates around me in the same position. We are asked to do another repetition of whatever it is. It starts and you feel like you are literally stumbling and pushing as hard as you possibly can, almost moving in slow motion, taking literally 10 times the amount of time it would normally take. You finish it by some "miracle", and then collapse. Then your coach tells you that you have one more repetition to go before the day is over. So by another "miracle" you pick yourself up again and start the last rep. Then it happens. Your body goes numb. You hit that spot in your unconscious sometimes referred to in sports as "the zone". It is the place you go to when you achieve the ultimate level of focus. It is where the "fight or flight" instinct resides. Now, once you hit that "zone" your brain goes on autopilot, forgetting all fatigue and pain and you not only finish the last repetition, but in some cases, you actually finish it FASTER than the very first repetition. I've experienced this first hand. And it usually was followed by a complete black out and collapse at the end, body literally shutting down due to "overexertion" and I've passed out.

Of course, this can be explained on a chemical level. The release of endorphines, natural steroids, adrenaline and such. Which makes it mechanical. However, what triggered the chemical reaction is what I'm questioning here. Why is it that not everyone is capable of, or has ever been able to experience this? And why is it that even though I have reached this "zone" several times...I cannot under any circumstances say that I can reproduce it at will. Even the very best of the very best professional athletes cannot reproduce the effect on demand. It may seem so with certain people, but trust me that is nowhere near the case. For those that don't understand what I'm talking about, watch the animatrix episode with the sprinter (forget the title of the episode).

The point in all of this is that our minds work in such a way that is a complete and utter mystery to us, using our current logic and theories. I'm not going to touch the "do we have a soul or not" argument. Actually I think it's somewhat irrelevant at this phase. However, I think that we do totally underestimate ourselves. I think the analyzation we do is very helpful for trying to understand the why's and the what's, but I also think it pigeonholes us to a certain extent. i think we definitely need to be a lot more open to other theories and to not simply dismiss them because they cannot be proven by OUR CURRENT WAY OF THINKING. For all we know, our current logic is so far backwards it's comical. Look at the way we view cavemen for an example of this! It was a universal truth that black people were genetically inferior to white people right? The world was flat. The sub 4 minute mile was IMPOSSIBLE, and if it was broken the runner would DIE from exhaustion making it pointless to try. Yet the following year after it was broken for the first time...THIRTY SEVEN different people ran sub 4 minutes over the mile. A similar thing happened with the 7 foot high jump, and the 20 foot pole vault.

Do we have souls? Who knows, really. Can it be proven either way? I'm not sure. Not by our current standards of very narrow thinking. I know this sounds totally Star Trek here, but I think our real leaps and bounds will start to occur once we realize how insignificant we are. As Terry suggested, the are billions upon billions of galaxies out there. Once we get over the natural human arrogance that our lives actually mean something, then maybe we will start to really understand the what's and why's and actually make our lives meaningful.