The fact that America is such a pussy will be it's downfall....

[ultraflip]

Border patrol agent shoots a illegal Mexican drug dealer and the Mexican government pushes for the US to punish them and like a big pussy we say ok...

Somalians move in and refuse to follow our laws and want their own, the government says ok....

In war they hide behind civilians, mosques, and other no bomb areas and we just let them kill our troops and get away with it...

I think it's time we gave them all the finger and showed them just how ruthless we could be. How many illegals/drug dealers/terrorist will try to come over once we start picking them off as soon as they cross the line. How many more people like the Somalians/Mexicans are going to come here for fredom to only try to turn it into their country if we just kick them the fuck out as soon as they pull shit like this? How many times are civilians going to harbor terrorist if we just start dropping bombs on their houses? The answer is none! That fact we cater to everyone and get pushed around because we are such pussies and afraid to piss anyone off is going to screw us over.

/rant

[*chris*]

well put flip

i just heard tonite that some marine or army squad leader is being brought up on murder charges/court marshal for throwing a grenade into a house and killing a couple of kids and women. (or something like that)

but the kicker was, his unit was under attack and they thought it was coming from the direction of that house.

how fkn rediculous can it get? its war, sht happens. i have never been in battle, but i can only imagine how disorienting things can get when an attack comes from out of nowhere.

[nlakind]

^^^They killed 18 civilians! Not just a couple people...All who were not engaging in combat what so ever. In the military there are rules of engagement & one of those is to identify your enemy before shooting. I'm very greatful for what our troops do everyday but just because they're fighting a war doesn't give them a right to shoot anyone they see...I agree that some changes need to be made in this country...SOME BIG changes but I think people need to be more informed about what's going on before any of these changes can be made..American's are oblivious about what's going on here & abroad. As a whole, We/American's are pretty ignorant & don't care, we are extremely one sided & need to be more eduactaed about world issue's...That's the only way for this country to prosper...

[evo87]

Drug dealers don't come here for freedom, they come here because the drug market is so big here. Just the other day in Mexico city they found a large sum of money I think they said the most in history. All in American money, so if you want the drug dealers to stop coming over than stop buying there drugs.

[chavo_del_8]

Not to be rude but I dont exactly think the Rules of Engagement are running through our troops mind when they're in combat. They're instructed to shoot and ask questions later. They're drilled to react on instincts, not to sit and analyze the situation lol its not like these guys have a "pause" button to stop combat and be like "hmm..should I shoot?". It's a war zone, unfortunately bad things will happen to good (and bad) ppl no matter what.

[nlakind]

Actually, they are absolutely not suppossed to shoot first & ask question's later! That's a HUGE misconception bro!

First of all, this war is a bunch of bullshit to begin with...Second of all, I agree that you have to be very quick to think & have very little time & I'm not taking away from what the soldier's in Iraq have to go through but being at war DOES NOT give you the right to shoot everyone you see! Especially if they're in a house eating dinner...Are you serious right now? Come on...

[chavo_del_8]

Im not defending the war one bit either . Maybe I worded it wrong but I do not think that it's right, like you said to shoot a family while they are at dinner or whatever the case may be. But I also know that innocent ppl will be hurt because it's an urban war. Unfortunately combat will break out anywhere regardless of who is around, it is not an isolated zone. I just don't think it's fair that we (myself included) are sometimes quick to get on our soldiers especially when they are young kids ( i think the average marine's age in iraq is like 19.5) who lack the rationale, maturity and maybe emotional stability to act accordingly.

lol crap..there was something else I was going to say but I forgot..stupid proofreading..

[Macky]

I think the US Military should ignore the rules of engagement.

There will always be collateral damage. not to sound heartless, but do you think the insurgents follow a strict code of conduct or rules of engagement? no. fight fire with fire. you want to flush insurgents out, drop leaflets over an area telling non combatants to surrender and be ID'd as non-combatants. then carpet bomb the whole place. insurgents hiding in a building? call an airstrike and bomb that shit to the stone age. teens or kids firing at you, fire back.

flip has made a big point. america is being a wuss. yes the war is not going to be solved anytime soon. yes its sad that innocent civilians are dying everyday. we cant help it, no matter what politicians say. all you have to do is shoot every bad guy and suspected bad guy. hell if i were in chrage id make sure the bad guy and everyone in a 50 mile radius would get a tommahawk on their ass. the thing is, these fundamentalists and insurgents are like bacteria. you have to find and kill the source and keep on killing anything that sprouts. id personally destroy everything in sight, collateral damage be damned. why? because when one of those kids and the other parent survives, they will seek vengeance, and the whole damned cycle will begin again. you can try educating them - it will only work up to a point, but those who are fanatics will still eventually do the same thing.

politics is blurring the law, and even the interpretation of the law. shit if you tried crossing the border into mexico im pretty sure they'll shove a burrito up your ass and nobody would ever know it happened. the US has the power to demand what it wants. enough pussy footing around. id say give the ultimatum to illegal border crossings. either stop or be shot on sight. you dont like to follow the law, you get your ass hauled to jail. politicians SHOULD MAKE IT AS SIMPLE AS THAT, not complicate things with bullshit politics. sure there will be due process and all, but they should stick to their guns. iran threatening nuclear war? deploy the entire seventh fleet within striking distance and get the bombers from Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean fly over Iran 24/7. the US can do it. its just held back by politics.

[blkside]

I love when people talk about subjects they know nothing about FIRST HAND. Regardless of your opinions and outlooks on the situation there are circumstances you dont see in the news or read in the paper. Do any of you have a link to this story?

[nothere]

all I know, we'd be speaking german* if we were as big a boobs then as we are now.

and I don't know who the palestinians would be hating right now.

[chavo_del_8]

I love when people talk about subjects they know nothing about FIRST HAND. Regardless of your opinions and outlooks on the situation there are circumstances you dont see in the news or read in the paper. Do any of you have a link to this story?


Nowhere did I mention that I had first hand experience but I do understand that like you said there are things we dont see and hear about in the media. Which is why Im sticking up for the troops. Not every action taken will/can be justified but until we (civilians) know what it is like to be in actual combat then we should probably not pass judgement on something we don't have all the information on.

[blkside]

That was a general statement not directed at anyone. There are rules and regulations that are given above and beyond R.O.E and there are also ways to manipulate the wording of it which is why I wanted the link to this described incident...

[*chris*]

+millions to macky

[nothere]

blkside, you in the service now?

[blkside]

Yes

[EvoPwr]

I love when people talk about subjects they know nothing about FIRST HAND. Regardless of your opinions and outlooks on the situation there are circumstances you dont see in the news or read in the paper. Do any of you have a link to this story?


Flip is the story :D We need to drop some real bombs on some places, this country was founded on the slaughtering of millions of innocent native americans. Everyone seems to forget that shit. Everyone also seems to forget 9/11. There are way too many hippie bitches in this country. Remember one thing...ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE.

[Eckolaker]

Yeah I fucking remember 9/11.

That was the day, the Constitution got shredded. That was the day the bitch niggas went public with their plans to dominate. You guys argue over illegal aliens, and tree-hugging hippies(the Shiny Keys, I call them), meanwhile the man has his hand in your pocket stealing your wallet.

Guess what?!!! This is how they condition you to accept their plans. What are their plans? Well to stay on topic...lets start with the North American Union. Google it fuckers. US, Canada, Mexico, completely folded into the same.

Get active, get informed, or get the fuck out.

[x[corwyn]]

^^^They killed 18 civilians! Not just a couple people...All who were not engaging in combat what so ever. In the military there are rules of engagement & one of those is to identify your enemy before shooting. I'm very greatful for what our troops do everyday but just because they're fighting a war doesn't give them a right to shoot anyone they see...I agree that some changes need to be made in this country...SOME BIG changes but I think people need to be more informed about what's going on before any of these changes can be made..American's are oblivious about what's going on here & abroad. As a whole, We/American's are pretty ignorant & don't care, we are extremely one sided & need to be more eduactaed about world issue's...That's the only way for this country to prosper...


I think if you were ever under fire you might feel differently. Bullets everywhere. You see what looks like a muzzle flash coming from house and under cover... What to do. You do what you can to get you and your men out of there safely.

Now how many of you honestly think those civilians werent supporting those guerillas? Seriously.

As for the drug dealers crossing over....Im all for using them for target practice. Have any of you seen what they have done to the border towns by Texas? Whatever we could muster in terms of violence and brutality would pale in comparison.

Politically Correct is such a terrible word and a terrible thing to have happened to America. I agree 100% about it ruining us. It all started with 55mph speed limit, then the seat belt laws, then helmet laws, then hey lets make our kids wear so much protection they waddle out of the house.

Now we have people that drive shittier because they think they are safe with all the BS and kids that would rather stay inside than spend 20 minutes getting dressed and undressed before doing anything outside. Pain and scars are good and effective teachers. Thats why we have them in our biology.

I keep wondering where we and our country will be in 50 years. WW2 we did what we had to, to get the job done. Korean war, muzzling MacArthur meant getting a half assed victory that we still pay for today. Following that doctrine of a heavy ROE into Vietnam meant we lost because the enemy had no ROE. They shot at you and killed you as soon as they suspected you were the enemy. We have the same issue in Iraq.

Against another direct Army we kick ass. We have the tools and ability to nail them and hard. When we get into a guerilla action we dont do what we need to to win. If we did what was necessary ruthlessly, brutally, and hard we would save more lives than lose, in troops and especially civilians. Does anyone even count the bodies of the civilians killed by bombs, or actions by the guerillas? They only know and respect strength, which is how Sadam kept them under his thumb for decades.

[Macky]

I totally agree Chad.

Saddam kept these insurgents in check by killing them or butchering them on sight. yes it was a brutal dictatorship, but it got the job done. Iraq as a whole was, in a sense, more prosperous then than they are now, save for being free. freedom does come at a price. unfortunately, to keep that freedom and keep the insurgents at bay, things have to be dealt with more harshly.

these idiots firing AKs and RPGs are not part of any recognized army, so in theory, they do not fall under the same category and do not deserve anything provided by the Geneva convention and all that legal crap. Its a war zone, you cant see your foe, you cant differentiate between friend or foe, you adjust accordingly. not pussy foot around.

take for example that ambush at the river of secrets, featured several times on CNN. i feel for the families who lost those four marines who were ambushed. the intel was wrong, the place they raided was empty, and on the way out they were ambushed by insurgents from fortified locations. they would not have lost lives in that raid if they had dropped a bomb on that building first, and everyone came in Tanks second. Instead, they relied on bad intel (possibly minced by then) then rode in open-roofed Humvees. bad idea.

hell why not take things a step further? use agents posed as media and interview these guys? you see videos of kids firing RPGs at US troops. why not have that cameraman and his crew be equipped with weapons to shoot them on sight? heck maybe retrofit the camera with a smaller RPG. its possible now. and it will have more of an impact.

a Nuke stopped WW2. Im pretty sure there are more forceful, non-nuclear means available now that can help towards resolving the Iraq war. the US is just not doing what needs to be done. Generals in the front lines arent calling the shots, people thousands of miles away behind wooden desks in airconditioned rooms are the ones doing so. its time to change that.

speak their language. shoot them on sight. have a doubt on a building or village? drop a MOAB, then send in troops. the US has the technology to protect its own and get the job done at the same time. More technology involved and being direct to the point with dealing with insurgents means less bodybags coming in from Iraq. putting restrictions and shackles on the troops hinders their ability to fight. first thing that has to go is the ROE.

border crossings should also be enforced tighter, stricter. Think North Korea. i doubt anyone has the balls to cross over from NK to SK. thats because they will shoot you on sight. no questions asked. fuck human rights on that one. you know they will shoot your ass, so if you still cross, all bets are off.

[RPD_FKTARD]

ROE? hahaha
if u're under heavy fire would you still want to stick ur head out to see who's shooting u?
there's no restart button if u're dead.

[DTunedEvoX]

Finally a topic I can see eye to eye with w/ blkside (lol j/k bro) ... And I agree with Flip though - wtf is all I can muster. Nick- do you got a link to that story I couldnt find it anywhere :\

[x[corwyn]]

I completely agree. Have an area thats "hot"? MOAB. Come in and clean up afterwards. Civilians wont harbor those guys anymore. International outcry? Hell we have the entire planet pissed at us already. Since we have already blown that, screw it. most of them are tied to our economy anyway.

On another note anyone read about how high ranking military men are dissapearing in Iran? Now thats hot. I like that. I dont think its us though, because we just dont have brass ones like that. I think its Israelis.

[blkside]

After reading all this the only thing I wanna know is what nationality Eckolacker is.. I notice alot of people say nigga on the boards...Do you have a lack of vocabulary. How many would say it to my face? Has anyone ever heard Eminem say it...nope..hes your great white hope...take a learning lesson.

Back on point... If you drop a moab there isnt nothing to go in after. Use a daisy cutter and everything that doesnt require oxygen will remain. Much more effective to recover info or bodies. I still havent seen a link yet? Anyone

[x[corwyn]]

After reading all this the only thing I wanna know is what nationality Eckolacker is.. I notice alot of people say nigga on the boards...Do you have a lack of vocabulary. How many would say it to my face? Has anyone ever heard Eminem say it...nope..hes your great white hope...take a learning lesson.

Back on point... If you drop a moab there isnt nothing to go in after. Use a daisy cutter and everything that doesnt require oxygen will remain. Much more effective to recover info or bodies. I still havent seen a link yet? Anyone


http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/south_park/index.jhtml

look at wheel of fortune then watch apologise.....


Make echolaker "apologise" the same way..... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Macky]

]
I completely agree. Have an area thats "hot"? MOAB. Come in and clean up afterwards. Civilians wont harbor those guys anymore. International outcry? Hell we have the entire planet pissed at us already. Since we have already blown that, screw it. most of them are tied to our economy anyway.

On another note anyone read about how high ranking military men are dissapearing in Iran? Now thats hot. I like that. I dont think its us though, because we just dont have brass ones like that. I think its Israelis.


haha very true. funny thing is, these militants and insurgents dont realize that if they take the US out of the picture, every other market in the world will collapse, then in turn their tiny little sand lots will suffer the pinch, but on a much greater level. just last week when the housing market here had a slight pitch down, the asian market went down harder. these people arent thinking really, nearly everything is tied to the US economy. heck, thats why people flock here for a chance to get a bite at that pie, and they want to take out the bakery. go figure.

if the US stops buying and declares war over all of them, do you think their economy (or the rest of the world's economy for that matter) would survive? no. they may provide raw materials (oil) but thats no use if your main buyer isnt interested in buying anymore but bombing your ass.

with regard to the Iranian officials missing, i think thats a smart way to do *business*. i also believe its the Israelis, simply because only they have the guts to go all out (they warded off Egypt and are in constant battle with militants everyday) without thinking twice.

i rarely hear of israeli soldiers getting killed on patrol. they do things the way the US did things before - bomb/shell with artillery suspected fortifications, then send in troops with air cover afterwards. its expensive, but its smart and keeps their body bag count down. they actively use undercover air marshalls in all their flights in and around their country since the late 60s and 70s and have not had an attack similar to 9/11 to date, despite being at the crosshairs of nearly every arab nation (similar to the US situation). they suspected Iraq once of developing nukes, and sent a flight of F16s to take out an Iraqi nuclear reactor to get the job done. The US, with all the military airpower at its disposal, is fighting a war (fueled by Iraq's *ability* to harbor/develop WMDs) for five years with no end result in sight. see the difference? Israel was criticized for bombing that reactor. but that was the end of it. we are getting criticized for a war with seemingly no purpose (with our troops' hands tied behind their backs). Israel didnt lose a single pilot in that raid, and destroyed the reactor during a shift change to minimize collateral damage. the US has lost thousands of men and women in the armed services.

do the math.

and for the sake of discussion, one of the pilots in that raid on the iraqi reactor was killed when Columbia disintegrated upon reentry two years ago. he was the israeli astronaut.

[nlakind]

JUst to clarify, I agree with what you guys are saying about the immigrants crossing our borders illegally...

Here is an article on what I was talking about yesterday about the civilians:

At 7:15 a.m. on Saturday, November 19, 2005, a convoy of US Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Batallion, 1st Marines was hit by a remote-controlled roadside bomb affixed to a propane tank. The driver of one Humvee, Lance-Corporal Miguel Terrazas, was killed instantly, while two other Marines in the vehicle were wounded.

After Marines confirmed that the bomb was detonated by remote control, a drone surveillance aircraft was launched, and Marines prepared to conduct house-to-house searches. The Los Angeles Times has reported that at this point, “jets dropped 500-pound bombs,” but is unclear where the bombs fell, why the bombs were dropped, and with what results.

The dozen Marines involved in the house-to-house searches split into four-man “fire teams.” One of these fire teams, led by a sergeant identified by ABC News as Frank Wuterich, began methodically killing innocent civilians over the course of the next five hours.

Five people in a nearby taxi were shot to death immediately, and then the fire team raided three houses. In each house, the Marines broke down the door, grouped the occupants together in a single room, and executed them. The victims included old women, children, men, and infants.

So many bullets were fired at close range that most of the head of one man was obliterated; another woman had both arms shorn off at the elbow. Almost all of the victims were shot point blank in the upper body, execution style. One man was then gunned down as he attempted to flee.

In all, 18 people were killed in the houses, one outside, and five in the taxi, bringing the total to 24.

Nine-year-old Eman Waleed and her younger brother Abdul Rahman survived the attack on their house, as all of the adults in the room shielded the children with their bodies. Hours after the massacre, Iraqi soldiers found the children under the pile of corpses—wounded but alive.

Eman has been quoted recalling the Marines shouting, breaking down doors, and murdering her terrified grandparents as they emerged in their nightclothes. Then, as the Marines turned to her, her parents and relatives leapt to shield her from the bullets. As her parents lay dying on top of her, and even though she had been shot herself, she knew to keep quiet. Abdul, one year younger, has been unable to communicate since November.

Following the massacre, the officer in charge reported to his superiors that his unit had been hit by a roadside bomb and had then come under attack by insurgents with small-arms from the nearby houses. Not long after the attack, a separate military intelligence unit arrived on the scene and photographed the bodies—a routine military procedure following any engagement. The cover-up began here.

It is likely that the Marines involved in the incident knew that they had not been attacked by insurgents. If nothing else, the Kalashnikov rifles commonly used by insurgents make a distinctive krak-krak sound, and US soldiers learn quickly to distinguish this report from the sounds of other rifles.

The intelligence unit that arrived later to photograph the bodies would have noticed the execution-style wounds, the absence of weapons or shell casings inside the houses, and the lack of bullet holes on the houses’ exteriors.

The unit’s photographs and a report were filed with a military official—most likely a battalion intelligence officer—who would have noticed the discrepancy between the official account and the photographs. Finally, the unmanned surveillance aircraft that was launched after the initial roadside bombing would have recorded from the air the entire battle, or lack thereof, and this footage would have been seen by officials high up in the chain of command.

Nonetheless, an official Marine communiqué from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi on November 20 claimed that “a US Marine and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb.... [I]mmediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire.”

Lieutenant-Colonel Michelle Martin-Hing is among the military officials who evidently lied about the events of November 19. She claimed that the fault for the civilian deaths lay with insurgents who “placed noncombatants in the line of fire as the Marines responded to defend themselves.”

After the Marines had left the area, a local Haditha journalism student with a video camera arrived and recorded grisly images in the houses, on the streets, and at the hospital morgue. In January, reporters for Time magazine acquired these images, as well as interviews with witnesses, and presented them to Colonel Barry Johnson, a US Military spokesman, for comment. Following this exchange, an official military investigation was launched, and the families of those who were murdered were each paid $2,500.

On March 19, Time ran its report, called “One Morning in Haditha: US Marines killed 15 Iraqi civilians in their homes last November. Was it self-defense, an accident, or cold-blooded revenge?” Earlier this month, Congressman John Murtha (Democrat of Pennsylvania), who had been briefed on the events, publicly charged that the civilians had been killed “in cold blood.”

“I understand the investigation shows that in fact there was no firefight,” he said, “there was no explosion that killed the civilians on a bus. There was no shrapnel. There were only bullet holes inside the house where the Marines had gone in.”

In the past week, another murder and cover-up perpetrated by US Marines in Iraq has come to light. Military officials have charged that in Hamandiya, on April 26, US troops murdered a defenseless man and then planted a Kalashnikov and shovel on his body in an attempt to frame him as an insurgent. The alleged perpetrators have been returned to Camp Pendleton, and a military trial in their case is being prepared.

The men who were directly involved in these killings should stand trial for what they have done, but it is absurd to claim that their prosecution and punishment constitutes “justice” and absolves the political and military leaders who sent them to Iraq on the basis of lies and conditioned them to carry out atrocities in support of an illegal invasion and colonial-style occupation.

All crimes and atrocities in an aggressive war flow from the decision to wage war in the first place, and in a war of colonial occupation and mass oppression, atrocities such as the massacre of November 19 are inevitable. This was the legal principle established at Nuremberg and invoked against senior Nazi military and government officials who planned and carried out military aggression.

Those who are ultimately responsible for the events of November 19 are the architects of the Iraq war itself—members of the Bush administration, beginning with the president, leaders of both houses of Congress, and the top military brass. They continue to wage war in the face of determined popular resistance in Iraq to foreign occupation and massive anti-war sentiment in the US. After Abu Grahib, Fallujah, Haditha and a death toll of more than a hundred thousand Iraqis and nearly 2,500 Americans, no high-ranking official has been held accountable.

For these same officials to lay their own crimes at the feet of the lowest-ranking perpetrators is utter hypocrisy. It is worth pointing out that Saddam Hussein is presently being tried for crimes carried out during his presidency, for which he is being held responsible whether or not it can be proved that he was directly responsible. The US-orchestrated prosecution is arguing that the crimes flowed from his policies, and that he therefore bears guilt.

See Also:
Witnesses, video document massacre in Haditha: US Marines killed Iraqi civilians “in cold blood”

[nlakind]

You will all find that this article agree's more with what Macky was saying & after reading it & I get it now..

[SoCalRedLine]

you ll should read MLK's "Beyond Vietnam" speech. It addresses alot of the same issues we see in our curent war.
/my 2¢

p.s. any of you marines ever heard of the "welcome mat?"

[Macky]

there is a fine difference between indiscriminate killing and taking out a target with surrounding collateral damage.

in one, you saw face to face a person who is a non-combatant, and shot anyway. the other is you have a target, surrounded by civilians (that for all you know are being used as human shields) that needs to be taken out for tactical reasons. both obviously include non-combatants, but one is unavoidable since, by virtue of avoiding or postponing the bombing run would let insurgents escape to pillage and fight another day - prolonging the fight and escalating the situation.

this is where measuring the amount of collateral damage comes in. only seasoned veterans (i.e. not politicians) can make that *call* to take a target out with consideration to the surrounding locals. sometimes the shock of a bomb can kill, but what can you do? you cant risk sending troops to flush out people and they themselves get shot (and killed) doing so just to make sure the target area is cleared of non-combatants. you weigh the pros and cons and pull the trigger. this is where smart bombs come in. now, smart bombs are not yet smart enough to differentiate between friend or foe, but it is designed to avoid OUR people getting killed, not the surrounding population around a target area. its designed to help our troops fight and come home alive, preserving and limiting collateral damage comes next. nothing's perfect, but at least that cannot, and does not fall under, indiscriminate killing, as opposed to what insurgents do.

im vehemently opposed to indiscriminate killing. but if a marine is in a firefight and sees a young boy or girl with an AK pointed him, he has every right to take that subject out. in dealing with insurgents, you cant use harsh language, or even language as a whole. this is the *fine line* that politics has to fix for the military to do its job effectively. instead, the politics inolved are making a mess of it. ideally we want to kill only the bad guys but in a war, you cannot make decisions based solely on ideals. you also use common sense and judgement at the drop of a hat.

in flipside though (not that im justifying what the marines did in that story), *for all we know* they may have taken out future insurgents. that may fall under speculation, but again, its just a flipside, another way of looking at it, not justifying it. what those marines did is indiscriminate and rightly should be prosecuted. that is the law. but unfortunately, this same law is twisted in misinterpreted by politicians, and sometimes puts our soldiers on the other side of the gun. if a *kid* accidentally shoots dead a marine, the kid's parents would appeal, and the marine gets the short end of the stick. it can happen that way and im sure something in the same nature already has happened.

war is ugly. throwing politics into the mix makes it uglier and worse.

[blkside]

The thing is with news stories is that you get a one sided perspective to the real story. No one but the marines there knows exactly what happened and having a picture od the aftermath is irrelevant. I am of the firm nelief that if politicians children were in the service then this war would be over in weeks. You cant drive a car from the back seat.

Everyone has an opinion on how to take care of things but being over there is about comprimise,transition and adaptation. One minute you could be in a convoy and the next you could be on watch in the middle of a hostile town waiting for instructions. After being over there 3 times I have come to the conclusion it will be me that makes it out not them. I as well as many others will not hesitate to "clear" a house for one person. If that one person is the source of unrest then it is the occupants of the house's fault for harboring him... Oh well. Either way at least this thread isnt out of control.

[nothere]

indeed, all I ask is that you not jump to conclusions based on news reports.
there are a number of possible scenarios that would be more realistic to me. worst case the solders witnessed households cheering at the sight of the killed US solder.
just as likely, a propaganda film was created after the fact intended to ruin US solders reputation.
A small group of guys goes over the edge seeing good men killed by bad communities.

On a side note, I was about twenty when we bailed out of Vietnam. At the time almost every person in the country felt we were loosing the war, that the north comms were not that bad a people. If you look at that war now, you realize we were winning big time. basically inflicted big losses in every battle. This despite the horrible on / off bombing campaign. But to watch it on TV you knew we were in a lost cause.
When Kissinger threw the towel in the North comms were thrilled.
All the killing the American citizens decried during the war ended up being small potatoes after we left.

[blkside]

Damn you old. lol but like I have said all along is that being civilians you get half a story no matter who it comes from. Its the nature of the beast to make things seem better or in some cases worse than it is. After my first deployment to afghanistan (3 months before the rest of our BN) we all came home and enjoyed time off. Well seeing my company was there 3 months before anyone else we got the action. I was at a bar and was listening to a story from a guy in the BN. Mind you he was a fueler and all he does is pump gas. Well he was telling this guy and girl how he was there kicking down doors and he got a silver star and all kinds of dumb shit. So be wary of what you hear.

3 things I can tell you

1. There arent as many innocent people there as depicted
2. The further away from Bagdhad you go the more they want us there
3. News stories are there for entertainment. Dont be deceived from what is truly going on.

[Thero]

Well put Flip.

[Terry S]

meh.

I have no opinion on this at the moment.

Terry S

[nothere]

yup am old, still a kid inside

[blkside]

thats good... as long as the geritol flows you should be good...lol

[EVOMANIAC]

We should have never gone in to begin with. Why is evryone elses problems are responsibility? Where are the WMD's? Saddam didnt even have an Air Force to fight back with when we went in in 2003. Just how much of a threat was he really?

We send boys over to Iraq and expect them to act as well trained men during a combat situation. The excuse the Gov uses is they are trained. Now I am in the Navy so I dont know how much training a Marine or Army grunt goes through before he is ready to serve in combat, but I am sure it is safe to say less than six months of training. So we give these guys less than six months of training for face to face combat where you have to make split second decisions that your life depends on. We send some one to school for six months to a year so they can learn how to operate computers though. We are training our combat troops to fail. It is not by our own choice, these choices are being made by people who have never been in combat or it has been years since they have seen combat.

The people that are making the decisions as to where we need to attack or who the enemy is are thousands of miles away and have no real time picture of the situation.

Before someone tries to question my experience in the military. I am a Chief Petty Officer with over 15 years in and I have done 5 tours in the Gulf.

As for the US turning into a bunch of wussy's, well yes we are. We are too worried about offending someone elses beliefs or delicate sensibility. We have been playing "world police" too long now. We are expected to fix the worlds problems and then when we try we are the bad guys because it is AFU. We need to shut down the illegal immigration. Shoot first ask questions later. People dont see illegal immigration as a problem or even breaking the law. Well they are breaking into our country. Just like someone breaking into your house. We work day in and day out so illegal immigrants can live here nicely and not have to work and we also pay for their medical, hell we have enough Americans already that we do that for.


We the people of the United States of America need to stand up and tell the politicians we have had enough and "we the people" want our country back, not just from the illegal immigrants but also from the major corporations that are running our country through the politicians.

[nigletsyz]

i forsee another civil war in the not-so-distant future

[Terry S]

i forsee another civil war in the not-so-distant future


Cant/Wont happen.

Terry S

[evo87]

EVOMANIAC i agree with you 100%, but since when did illegal immigrants come to our country and not have to work, and live nicely. They come here to work and work the jobs that no other person wants to do. This country was created at the base of immigrants, everyone here is an immigrant. Why don't we all leave and give it back to the Indians.

[Terry S]

EVOMANIAC i agree with you 100%, but since when did illegal immigrants come to our country and not have to work, and live nicely. They come here to work and work the jobs that no other person wants to do. This country was created at the base of immigrants, everyone here is an immigrant. Why don't we all leave and give it back to the Indians.


Are we abusing the systems that the indian governments put in place? Are we draining on the economy of those same early indian governments?

No.

Different situation. Immigration isn't the issue. Illegal immigration coupled with abuse/corruption of the systems set in place for legal citizens is the issue.

Terry S

[Macky]

EVOMANIAC i agree with you 100%, but since when did illegal immigrants come to our country and not have to work, and live nicely. They come here to work and work the jobs that no other person wants to do. This country was created at the base of immigrants, everyone here is an immigrant. Why don't we all leave and give it back to the Indians.


the thing is, illegal immigrants are using this premise to justify all the wrong things they do, and to justify their being illegal and having rights.

BS.

+1 on TerryS.

[evo87]

his saying that illegal immigrants are coming in and living a good life. they come here to try and make a better life. They work jobs people don't do, and they live in poor conditions. it is illegal and what there doing is wrong, but how are you going to blame them for many problems we have. CORRUPTION, it lives on the people here, there wouldn't be any if people didn't go along with it. STOP BUYING DRUGS AND THERE WONT BE ANY.

[Macky]

noone is blaming them for all the problems we have. they are being blamed for the problems they themselves cause but expect us to fix.

its not about who's buying drugs, its about those who arent *contributing* to society but are a drain to society. its about those who decide on their own to work the jobs nobody wants, then proclaim themselves martyrs for doing the jobs nobody forced them to do. and its about those who want to justify their illegal stay here by "working very hard and work the jobs others refuse to do".

they want some automatic pardon and the government grant them full legal immigration status even though they entered the US mainland illegaly. they want to be full-fledged resident aliens without going through the process millions upon millions of other legal immigrants go through (i.e screening by the FBI, INS, Law Enforcement, etc).

come on.

its all BS if you ask me.

[x[corwyn]]

noone is blaming them for all the problems we have. they are being blamed for the problems they themselves cause but expect us to fix.

its not about who's buying drugs, its about those who arent *contributing* to society but are a drain to society. its about those who decide on their own to work the jobs nobody wants, then proclaim themselves martyrs for doing the jobs nobody forced them to do. and its about those who want to justify their illegal stay here by "working very hard and work the jobs others refuse to do".

they want some automatic pardon and the government grant them full legal immigration status even though they entered the US mainland illegaly. they want to be full-fledged resident aliens without going through the process millions upon millions of other legal immigrants go through (i.e screening by the FBI, INS, Law Enforcement, etc).

come on.

its all BS if you ask me.


People always have justifications for doing something illegal. No matter the justification, its still illegal. IMHO its also shameful and insulting to flee from one country, come into another illegally, get treated better than its citizens, then fly the country's flag you escaped from and complain how crappy this country is. You found your way here, you can find your way back...and the sooner the better.

[Macky]

]

People always have justifications for doing something illegal. No matter the justification, its still illegal. IMHO its also shameful and insulting to flee from one country, come into another illegally, get treated better than its citizens, then fly the country's flag you escaped from and complain how crappy this country is. You found your way here, you can find your way back...and the sooner the better.


my sentiments exactly. heck Ive endured YEARS of going through the normal immigration process to move here legally, get a job legally and keep my nose clean - since if you, as an immigrant, are found to be "undesireable" (i.e. commit crime, participate in massive anti-gov't rallies, etc) you can be deported and lose everything.

that threat of "stay out of trouble or else" doesnt apply to these folks, and i bet that if it was, they'd raise more hell for being discriminated upon, among other things.

[x[corwyn]]

]

People always have justifications for doing something illegal. No matter the justification, its still illegal. IMHO its also shameful and insulting to flee from one country, come into another illegally, get treated better than its citizens, then fly the country's flag you escaped from and complain how crappy this country is. You found your way here, you can find your way back...and the sooner the better.


my sentiments exactly. heck Ive endured YEARS of going through the normal immigration process to move here legally, get a job legally and keep my nose clean - since if you, as an immigrant, are found to be "undesireable" (i.e. commit crime, participate in massive anti-gov't rallies, etc) you can be deported and lose everything.

that threat of "stay out of trouble or else" doesnt apply to these folks, and i bet that if it was, they'd raise more hell for being discriminated upon, among other things.


Yea I am pretty much disgusted with our government for remotely tolerating this type of activity. The downfall of our country is going to be its inability to commit to a course of action and do what it takes to get the job done. The last several wars...immigration...health care...social security...space travel...its gotten so bloated and wishy washy that its almost ineffectual.

[Terry S]

his saying that illegal immigrants are coming in and living a good life. they come here to try and make a better life. They work jobs people don't do, and they live in poor conditions. it is illegal and what there doing is wrong, but how are you going to blame them for many problems we have. CORRUPTION, it lives on the people here, there wouldn't be any if people didn't go along with it. STOP BUYING DRUGS AND THERE WONT BE ANY.


See, they dont come here doing jobs citizens don't do. They do the jobs that citizens were TRYING to do but got undercut SEVERELY by illegals. Whoever does the job for less gets the contract and when you dont have to pay taxes, healthcare premiums, workers comp fees, or license/bond/insurance fees, its easy to undercut anyone out there.

But again, i'm not against hiring illegal immigrants. In fact, i've done so and plan to again in the future if they can do a comparable job for less than half the price of a regular licensed person.

It's not businesses or citizens responsibility to stop illegal immigration. Businesses and citizens dont make or enforce the laws in this country. That's what the government and legal system which created these rules are for.

Terry S

[x[corwyn]]

his saying that illegal immigrants are coming in and living a good life. they come here to try and make a better life. They work jobs people don't do, and they live in poor conditions. it is illegal and what there doing is wrong, but how are you going to blame them for many problems we have. CORRUPTION, it lives on the people here, there wouldn't be any if people didn't go along with it. STOP BUYING DRUGS AND THERE WONT BE ANY.


See, they dont come here doing jobs citizens don't do. They do the jobs that citizens were TRYING to do but got undercut SEVERELY by illegals. Whoever does the job for less gets the contract and when you dont have to pay taxes, healthcare premiums, workers comp fees, or license/bond/insurance fees, its easy to undercut anyone out there.

But again, i'm not against hiring illegal immigrants. In fact, i've done so and plan to again in the future if they can do a comparable job for less than half the price of a regular licensed person.

It's not businesses or citizens responsibility to stop illegal immigration. Businesses and citizens dont make or enforce the laws in this country. That's what the government and legal system which created these rules are for.

Terry S


Actually I disagree. Businesses are responsible for their ethics. Hiring illegal aliens is unethical, and illegal. Its a way of getting your services cheaper while circumventing regular, legal, and labor thats on the "books".

Businesses that engage in this type of activity should be labeled "Unamerican" and should be boycotted by its citizens. Consequently I also believe that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Personally I am in favor of jail time for corporate officers that promote that behavior.

[Terry S]

]
Actually I disagree. Businesses are responsible for their ethics. Hiring illegal aliens is unethical, and illegal. Its a way of getting your services cheaper while circumventing regular, legal, and labor thats on the "books".

Businesses that engage in this type of activity should be labeled "Unamerican" and should be boycotted by its citizens. Consequently I also believe that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Personally I am in favor of jail time for corporate officers that promote that behavior.


It's not illegal if you pay them less than $500 a week.

Terry S

[x[corwyn]]

]
Actually I disagree. Businesses are responsible for their ethics. Hiring illegal aliens is unethical, and illegal. Its a way of getting your services cheaper while circumventing regular, legal, and labor thats on the "books".

Businesses that engage in this type of activity should be labeled "Unamerican" and should be boycotted by its citizens. Consequently I also believe that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Personally I am in favor of jail time for corporate officers that promote that behavior.


It's not illegal if you pay them less than $500 a week.

Terry S


If thats true, it should be illegal. If we really dont want illegals here then we should do everything that we can to make that happen. Do not support companies that hire illegals, and publically boycott them. After all the almighty dollar counts for everything. Any public officials that do not support removal of illegals or want to "integrate" them into our society like giving them driver's license we need to publically let them know how we really feel, and vote for someone else. We also need to push our congress, our senate, and our state's elected official's to enforce present laws, and inact new laws that remove the incentives and freebies that the illegals enjoy.

We dont need a big f'n wall, nor a ton of tropps at our border. What we need to do is remove the "Goodies" and benefits illegals enjoy. There wont be an incentive then to brave the border crossing. Maybe then they will fight harder to make thier country what they need it to be instead of wrecking ours.