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View Full Version : GM 3-port FTMFW!!! +1 for infinite boost control



SoCalRedLine
04-06-2008, 09:18 PM
Hell yea im on my buddy's comp at Pendleton, but once i get home after tuning this thing out ill post results :D

...yea, i was so excited at my new found boost that i just had to make a thread without pics :grin:


So, just follow the instructions here:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=276674

and use this basic map:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=114318&d=1197844942

and you get 20 psi tapering to 19psi without any changes to the map posted (on an IX, stock VVT map). :D

Ill post up my revision of the map once i get 4th and 5th gear boost settled in.
The map posted above is set for 20psi across the board. the WGDC will allow it, but it well surpases 100% IDC on stock injectors and fuel pump. It is also set for the stock VVT map. The map pictured below is my map.

As promised:
http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=37&action=dlattach;topic=58819.0;id=14435;image

I have the following mods that allow me to make this work, your car will be different:
HKS Drop in
Tanabe DP
Works 80mm mp
Socal's 3" Testcat
Socal's modified stock muffler (3")

and tunewise:
Tephra version 5 w/ O2 sim turned on
Naji's VVT map

Its actually a very easy mod, especially if you have any experience running wires and using crimps.

Total labor hours:
2.5 hours, from soldering on the 10ohm 1-watt resistor, to installing the vaccum lines.

Total tuning hours:
3hrs so far.

Amount of HP increase:
I dont feel like posting graphs, but i went from a consistant 278-283hp on the stock BCS, to 303-313hp running stock 18psi with no taper on the GM BCS. (according to waaaaay too many evoscan logs, not dyno fkn proven)

ive also gotten down to 140ish hp running 0% MWGDC (10psi tapering to 7psi) :D

BEST $40 ive ever spent on the car!!

a lot of people have asked me how to tune the boost control stuff in ECUflash...

in a half a$$ed attempt to make sense i came up with this. It tells you how to make sense of:
Boost Desired Engine Load (BDEL)
Max Wastegate Duty Cycle (MWGDC, or WGDC in Evoscan)
Turbo Boost Error correction (TBEC)


Quote from: me
Tuning is like chaising your tail... you get one thing nailed down, then chase the other end of it, and end up having to go back and nail down the other part agian... hence BDEL, TBEC and MWGDC

in order to get the most consistant boost, you set the MWGDC without any Turbo Boost Error correction (other than maybe overshoot), then log a bunch to make sure it really is set, and works--18psi all gears, heat, etc...

Then you chase after your BDEL numbers (because before they didnt do much other than prevent overshoot). I lower them about 10 counts at a time until they start taking away MWGDC in my logs. That tells me where the boost made by the MWGDC correlates to the BDEL. i.e. 20psi @ 4000rpm = 67% WGDC @ 4000rpm = 135 @ 4000 in the BDEL table (for example only, not actual numbers)

Now you go back and put back the correction and re-tune the BDEL to give consistant MWGDC AND boost numbers on logs. This in not the easy part... your BDEL number means something different depending on the air temp, baro, coolant temp, etc. so it still needs to be fine tuned.

so, nail down the MWGDC in consistant logs, then mess with BDEL to give consistant MWGDC in logs, then throw back in the correction and start all over again ...lol
================================================== ===================
When youre out logging:

First, ignore the "WGDC Correction" number in evoscan itself. It really doesnt mean anything.

What you need to do is look at your MWGDC logs versus RPM in Evoscan. Look up yout MWGDC at the area where it starts to fluctiate, i.e. MWGDC = 67% @ 4000 rpm in evoscan.
Log:
RPM
Boost
WGDC

Then open your current ROM in ECUflash and look at the MWGDC table. Look what it says at 4000 RPM.

If it says that MWGDC should be 75% at that RPM, then you know that your TBEC is correcting downwards (less boost) by 8%.

What that means is that you overshot your BDEL number @ 4000RPM, by a certain amount of Load %.

In order to figure out that load % difference, you need to look at where -8% falls in the TBEC table. the boost correction number is on the right, and the number to the left of -8 will tell you the amount you over shot your BDEL number.

Then you can tell what number you need to change your BDEL by, i.e. + 5% to the load value @ 4000, to in order to stop the correction. Then go back and check what your logs are saying about boost and WGDC.


This also works for all you people running PSI based boost control.

Replace:
MWGDC with the term "Baseline Boost"
BDEL with "Desired boost (or whatever its called)"
TBEC with "Boost correction"

One major tuning company makes the BDEL add 10% MWGDC in gears 1-3, so that the boost remains a constant 20ish PSI in all gears.

some people lower the amount that the TBEC table can change the MWGDC, or change the sensor's refresh rate, or only use the boost reduction part of the TBEC...

Basically, there are lots of possibilities with this type of boost control.

WOT
04-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Awesome. I dont know why more people arent doing this.

the gm 3 port is SOOOOO much more consistant than the oem unit. you figure after wasting so much time dicking withthe oem unit, one would just spend a some cash & get the real deal.

btw, for $40-, did u get both the gm 3 port soloenoid& the pig-tail harness or just the solenoid?

SoCalRedLine
04-06-2008, 09:35 PM
Awesome. I dont know why more people arent doing this.

the gm 3 port is SOOOOO much more consistant than the oem unit. you figure after wasting so much time dicking withthe oem unit, one would just spend a some cash & get the real deal.

btw, for $40-, did u get both the gm 3 port soloenoid& the pig-tail harness or just the solenoid?

Seriously, im soooo stoked. I dunno why more people arent doing this as well.

Its even more awesome now with the tephra V5 patch. now i can switch between boost, and no boost (for now)

I have a few buddies that work at a GM dealer, i actually only paid the guys $20 and they kinda 'hooked me up' on the solenoid (shhhhh, dont tell anyone). I got the pigtail as well.



psstt. 1.52bar is 22 psi. ;)

Also looks like you got some error correction adding and subtracting according to the reported MUTII WGDC with ecu+.

but it will all come together with some tweaking. :)

Welcome to the ECU-boost club. :)


heh... thanks bryan. That pic posted is from the GM3 port thread on EvoM... mine actually spiked 1.76 bar @ 3k because that WGDC is for the stock vvt map :D ...lol. I had to do a bit of tweeking ot the map.

Right now im running 0's on the add side of TBEC, and stock values on the neg side. Im still dialing a few things in. I gotta go find my tune hill right now tho. get some WOT in 5th gear for 5 miles. Then dial things back and add the add side of TBEC back in there.

SoCalRedLine
04-06-2008, 09:45 PM
^lol, thats funny you say to rescale the map, because i added 3250, preemtively knowing that i would need it with the VVT map im running ...lol

Im still trying to figure out how the BCLO is working... thats cool. right now im peaking 255ish load settling at 220ish across the board...

...dunno if you remember from before but thats a HUGE improvement ofer the 200 going to under 190 at 5K...lol

Ill try running your BCLO of 200, and see what that does for me.

Oh, p.s. thanks for posting how to change the Solenoid activate/re-activte stuff ... it didnt work by adding the code on my 1.34, so i had to edit it through the program itself. Ill post a how to on that thread later on...

atlvalet
04-06-2008, 09:49 PM
I guess Aby and I aren't the only ones in SoCal with the GM 3 port :)

LBEVOGSR
04-06-2008, 10:31 PM
I guess Aby and I aren't the only ones in SoCal with the GM 3 port :)


nope, AWDTURBO has it as well.............

CASH$ MONEY
04-06-2008, 10:36 PM
someone needs to shine some light with us, and get rid of the damn MBC!!!


mike did you feel any differnce with it?

Evo8urv8
04-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Can't wait for Bryan have a supply of cone filters so I can get a 3-port retune. (among other things) :D

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-06-2008, 11:01 PM
Or you guys convinced me. I am going to order my 3 port this week.

I will be in the desert this weekend doing some logging and tunning.

Residue
04-06-2008, 11:28 PM
I ordered mine friday from RockAuto...this will be my project for next weekend. Where did you source the resistor? Will Radioshack have it? Planning to pick up the few tidbits to install this week.

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-06-2008, 11:49 PM
Radio shack should have the resistor, it is nothing exotic.

1of1000MR
04-06-2008, 11:57 PM
Nice, I'm glad to see that the OP is having so much fun tuning his evo. I'm gonna be installing the GM solenoid on my car tomorrow. Can't wait to start tuning it. It's gonna be a blast!

CASH$ MONEY
04-07-2008, 12:31 AM
Nice, I'm glad to see that the OP is having so much fun tuning his evo. I'm gonna be installing the GM solenoid on my car tomorrow. Can't wait to start tuning it. It's gonna be a blast!

does anyone have a picture or a link to this damn thing!!!! and its only 40 bucks? lol lunch money

CASH$ MONEY
04-07-2008, 12:51 AM
bryan... do you think its worth getting it... and that basically gets rid of the MBC correct?

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-07-2008, 09:08 AM
bryan... do you think its worth getting it... and that basically gets rid of the MBC correct?


This gets rid of the pill and replaces stock boost solenoid. Plus you need this to run PSI boost control.

j_nizzle
04-07-2008, 09:32 AM
bryan... do you think its worth getting it... and that basically gets rid of the MBC correct?


it's not as simple as plug and play in your case though. you will need something to log boost of at least monitor boost for it. but you should do it!

CASH$ MONEY
04-07-2008, 09:35 AM
sorry god lol...^^ :oops:

SoCalRedLine
04-07-2008, 09:44 AM
Sorry I wasn't clear enough on BCLO...

Let's say you are targeting 255 load...

Set your BCLO to 200 and your BDEL to 55.

This will make quick changes easier to do in your head instead of the 159.4 limit of BDEL plus whatever you input in your BCLO.

So for example BCLO is 200 and the BDEL tables looks like this:

60
60
60
60
60
60
60
60
60
58.1
55
50.6
42.5
39.3
30.6
21.2

oh yea... i completely understand that point, but what i thought (from what ive read) is that using a lower BCLO gives you a whole crapload (too much) resolution to set your boost with. I get what you are saying that the higher BCLO is easier for converting...

i mean hell, if you wanted to be funny, you could prolly change the BCLO to 240 and then the numbers in the BDEL would reflect (almost) what PSI you were trying to run.

I spent another 3 hours last night tuning it out with what i had (BCLO @ 90), and am comfortable enough to post the map for everyone else to use. Ill post it at lunch, as well as some logs.

One thing i noticed is that no matter what i did to the BDEL table the boost was mainly dependent on the Base WGDC. With Naji's VVT map i was having problems with it spiking 1.5-1.7 bar at 2500-3000, so i had to adjust the WGDC, and bring down the BDEL in that area to combat the spike.

Now im spiking the stock 1.34-1.44 bar (in 3rd-5th) settling at 18 tapering to 17. WOOT, no more taper to 15psi...lol.

Im also hitting 99.8% IDC at 7500, for 10.7:1 afr

My favorite thing was the new found boostability (sorry for the made up word)...lol. It used to not boost right away if i went from 33%-50ish% throttle in 4th or 5th. Now it hits .5bar without any hesitation... its craAAAzy...:D

ant to the guys asking about where to find the resistors, you can get them at MAR-VAC (expensive, but very well stocked), radioshack, frys, and almost nay electronics supply store.

someone needs to shine some light with us, and get rid of the damn MBC!!!


mike did you feel any differnce with it?


lol... lemme put it this way. We were on the airstrip on base (kinda illegally) with me, and my buddy's in an MazdaSpeed 3, that was bone stock... So, we had a run from a 30mph roll (all the way through 3rd from 2.5K rpm's) to 80mph and my car would barely get a door on the MS3. Thats on stock boost of 20ish peak, then 18 tapering to 15psi. I spent about an hour pulling out the airbox, various hoses, and butt connecting the GM 3-port in there (with the stock plug wired in-line). Then slapped the basic tune i posted on the car, and was able to pull the MS3 by about 1-2 cars by the end of 3rd.

GokuSSJ4
04-07-2008, 09:52 AM
would love to do the cone filter along with the 3gm port solenoid ...
good stuff ...looks super stealth... =)

SoCalRedLine
04-07-2008, 10:26 AM
...so, i was wondering 1 thing...

why the 10ohm 1-watt resistor, and not 2 5ohm .47watt resistors?

and WTF does this do (i know it adds 10ohm of resistance)? does it supress signal going to/from the BCS? or does it just cancel out noise (like a diode)...

taenaive
04-07-2008, 02:09 PM
...so, i was wondering 1 thing...

why the 10ohm 1-watt resistor, and not 2 5ohm .47watt resistors?

and WTF does this do (i know it adds 10ohm of resistance)? does it supress signal going to/from the BCS? or does it just cancel out noise (like a diode)...

It is there to protect the power source from overloading since GM 3port uses more power.

You should try JDM map sensor based boosting also. It is easier to tune since you are working with direct reading from JDM map sensor and It works quite good with GM 3port. I was able to hold 27 psi peak and 24 psi at the red line with stock 8 turbo.

SoCalRedLine
04-07-2008, 02:16 PM
Updated with my revision of the map. Ill post up before/after results whenever i can sort through all these damn logs i have and get a good (stock-ish) 4th gear WOT pull.

Just to say, tho.... according to Evoscan im making 280tq @3000, and 330hp at 7500...lol. Im sure thats accurate :roll:

Looney Tuning
04-07-2008, 08:26 PM
With the GMBCS, I would advise bringing down the stock numbers on the neg side (less downward % of correction of error correction since the GMBCS reacts that much quicker. Also try it with 0 at 2.5 and 5.

Also 200 in the BCLO works wonders for managing the BDEL tables better. Rescaling the RPM adds resolution in the 3250 rpm + regions. Changing the variable for boost control to follow fuel makes it more stable. With the GMBCS you also may want to bring down correction interval as well as it works great with the GMBCS.

viva la GMBCS. :)


Bryan, how much WGDCC would recommend running with the GMBCS? Is 1 too much? I think it is, since the GMBCS is faster reacting than the SBCS.

Looney Tuning
04-07-2008, 08:28 PM
bryan... do you think its worth getting it... and that basically gets rid of the MBC correct?


This gets rid of the pill and replaces stock boost solenoid. Plus you need this to run PSI boost control.


AFAIK, you can run the GMBCS with load based boost control.

Looney Tuning
04-07-2008, 08:31 PM
Sorry I wasn't clear enough on BCLO...

Let's say you are targeting 255 load...

Set your BCLO to 200 and your BDEL to 55.

This will make quick changes easier to do in your head instead of the 159.4 limit of BDEL plus whatever you input in your BCLO.

So for example BCLO is 200 and the BDEL tables looks like this:

60
60
60
60
60
60
60
60
60
58.1
55
50.6
42.5
39.3
30.6
21.2


Bryan, how high can you go on the BCLO?

Looney Tuning
04-07-2008, 08:42 PM
Awesome. I dont know why more people arent doing this.

the gm 3 port is SOOOOO much more consistant than the oem unit. you figure after wasting so much time dicking withthe oem unit, one would just spend a some cash & get the real deal.

btw, for $40-, did u get both the gm 3 port soloenoid& the pig-tail harness or just the solenoid?


I have had excellent and consistent results with the OEM unit and the pill. I have posted multiple charts in the Tech Talk section.

The GMBCS might be better, but the downside is you lose the stealth factor especially if you have to take your car to the dealer for warranty work.

Another downside that you will have to splice into the stock harness and solder the pig tail to it. I really do not want to do that. I like to maintain the integrity of all the harnesses on my car.

alan678
04-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Just placed an order for mine :D

Also, I spoke with Bryan @ GST Motorsports and he says that this is a go on bigger turbos :D Let the testing and tuning begin, its been a long long time since my boost maps (aside from the limit map) has been used on my ECU...like 3 years now....muahahaha! :twisted:

taenaive
04-08-2008, 12:16 AM
I have had excellent and consistent results with the OEM unit and the pill. I have posted multiple charts in the Tech Talk section.

The GMBCS might be better, but the downside is you lose the stealth factor especially if you have to take your car to the dealer for warranty work.

Another downside that you will have to splice into the stock harness and solder the pig tail to it. I really do not want to do that. I like to maintain the integrity of all the harnesses on my car.

Just destroy stock BCS and use that as a connector. no need to splice the harness.
Stock BCS is not as good as GM 3port. dang pils and all is more hassle. That is why I destroyed mine :tickedoff:. I rather have MBC than stock BCS.

SoCalRedLine
04-08-2008, 09:29 AM
I have had excellent and consistent results with the OEM unit and the pill. I have posted multiple charts in the Tech Talk section.

The GMBCS might be better, but the downside is you lose the stealth factor especially if you have to take your car to the dealer for warranty work.

Another downside that you will have to splice into the stock harness and solder the pig tail to it. I really do not want to do that. I like to maintain the integrity of all the harnesses on my car.

Just destroy stock BCS and use that as a connector. no need to splice the harness.
Stock BCS is not as good as GM 3port. dang pils and all is more hassle. That is why I destroyed mine :tickedoff:. I rather have MBC than stock BCS.


When i put in the BCS, i just kept the stock plug inline with the GM pigtail... So, i can switch between the two (i dunno why i would) if I had to put it back in there. IMO, its pretty stealthy, it looks very similar to the stock BCS, and its mounted so far underneath that stock airbox, you cant even see it.

And to Naji, man...you gotta try this thing. Its much more responsive than the stock BCS. The GM 3-port responds to the smallest change in the WGDC or BDEL.

LBEVOGSR
04-08-2008, 09:33 AM
I have had excellent and consistent results with the OEM unit and the pill. I have posted multiple charts in the Tech Talk section.

The GMBCS might be better, but the downside is you lose the stealth factor especially if you have to take your car to the dealer for warranty work.

Another downside that you will have to splice into the stock harness and solder the pig tail to it. I really do not want to do that. I like to maintain the integrity of all the harnesses on my car.

Just destroy stock BCS and use that as a connector. no need to splice the harness.
Stock BCS is not as good as GM 3port. dang pils and all is more hassle. That is why I destroyed mine :tickedoff:. I rather have MBC than stock BCS.


When i put in the BCS, i just kept the stock plug inline with the GM pigtail... So, i can switch between the two (i dunno why i would) if I had to put it back in there. IMO, its pretty stealthy, it looks very similar to the stock BCS, and its mounted so far underneath that stock airbox, you cant even see it.

And to Naji, man...you gotta try this thing. Its much more responsive than the stock BCS. The GM 3-port responds to the smallest change in the WGDC or BDEL.


I really doubt the guys at the dealer would even know the difference between the two. Especially if your taking your car in for something that dosent involve looking at the BCS. And theres no need to "hack" into the stock harness at all, just use taps and call it a day.

Looney Tuning
04-08-2008, 09:43 AM
I have had excellent and consistent results with the OEM unit and the pill. I have posted multiple charts in the Tech Talk section.

The GMBCS might be better, but the downside is you lose the stealth factor especially if you have to take your car to the dealer for warranty work.

Another downside that you will have to splice into the stock harness and solder the pig tail to it. I really do not want to do that. I like to maintain the integrity of all the harnesses on my car.

Just destroy stock BCS and use that as a connector. no need to splice the harness.
Stock BCS is not as good as GM 3port. dang pils and all is more hassle. That is why I destroyed mine :tickedoff:. I rather have MBC than stock BCS.


When i put in the BCS, i just kept the stock plug inline with the GM pigtail... So, i can switch between the two (i dunno why i would) if I had to put it back in there. IMO, its pretty stealthy, it looks very similar to the stock BCS, and its mounted so far underneath that stock airbox, you cant even see it.

And to Naji, man...you gotta try this thing. Its much more responsive than the stock BCS. The GM 3-port responds to the smallest change in the WGDC or BDEL.


I really doubt the guys at the dealer would even know the difference between the two. Especially if your taking your car in for something that dosent involve looking at the BCS. And theres no need to "hack" into the stock harness at all, just use taps and call it a day.


Taps will loosen with time. I tapped into the 5 V power source for the GM 3 bar sensor using a tap that was not supposed to loosen. It loosened and I lost the power to the GM 3 bar. THe best thing to do is to solder the pig tail of the GM 3 port to the stock harness. That is what AWDTURBO did. He did a very clean install.

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-08-2008, 09:51 AM
The dealer knows we mess with our ECU and there is tons of evidence on these boards to back that up. I don't see how adding the GMBCS would make it any different.

LBEVOGSR
04-08-2008, 09:53 AM
The dealer knows we mess with our ECU and there is tons of evidence on these boards to back that up.Â* I don't see how adding the GMBCS would make it any different.


I agree! I think we are all lucky to have Sam and Abbas on our sides.............

SoCalRedLine
04-08-2008, 10:05 AM
IMO, the only thing id warranty is body related stuff anyways, like my leaky MR gauges...thats covered by a TSB anyways...

I accept full responsibility for anything ive done to my car. If Sam or Abbas would be willing to warranty anything on my car, i would be stoked...but,
so far *knocks on wood* i havent had a reason to warranty this car. I dont think id ever try to warranty the trans/motor. 'cause seriously, who wants a re-built trans/motor thats not built by TRE/cosworth?...lol

oldevodude
04-09-2008, 10:55 AM
Just placed an order for mine :D

+1

j_nizzle
04-09-2008, 04:07 PM
does anyone on here work for or at GM?

i could use that discount...$58.xx OTD for both parts.

AWDTURBO
04-09-2008, 04:24 PM
Nice, I'm glad to see that the OP is having so much fun tuning his evo. I'm gonna be installing the GM solenoid on my car tomorrow. Can't wait to start tuning it. It's gonna be a blast!

does anyone have a picture or a link to this damn thing!!!! and its only 40 bucks? lol lunch money


Here's a pix of mine installed...

http://a867.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/122/l_9793efcd228b46f1054f65eb92f4e51a.jpg
http://a962.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/17/l_a7a0ba703a7b726334b9d07a58624cf9.jpg

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-09-2008, 05:20 PM
does anyone on here work for or at GM?

i could use that discount...$58.xx OTD for both parts.


I am working with my friend on a deal for parts. His dad works at GM. We are looking at less then $40 shipped for both. I should know by early next week.

Residue
04-09-2008, 07:02 PM
does anyone on here work for or at GM?

i could use that discount...$58.xx OTD for both parts.

check rockauto.com using the part numbers listed in the evom thread...total cost shipped was ~$35

Looney Tuning
04-09-2008, 07:06 PM
A lot of people tell me that I should switch to the GM 3-port. IMO, if it can be done with the pill, then there is no need to do it with the GM 3-port. If you have an intake and a test pipe, then you should be able to hold 21 psi by redline with the number 65 pill and that is w/o shutting the wastegate 100%. How did I know, I did it on my car. Here is the latest boost profile. There is a slight spike in boost at peak, that I will tune out, but it is only 1 data point (red cell). The boost peaks at 21 and nolds to 21 by redline. By 7500 rpm the peak boost is 20.71 psi.

I have not tested a number 67 pill on my car, but that is next. Currently, the WGDC by 7000 rpm is 97%. If can lower the WGDC by 5% at redline, then that will give me 93% WGDC.

It is said that the the stock turbo's effeciency is 22 psi by redline. If that is the case, then my car is very near to the max effeciency of the stock turbo. Â*

http://www.sr20deracing.com/EVO/AEM%20Intake/boost_tuned.gif

I have nothing against the GM 3-port. If a customer wants it and will install it, then I will tune it. But I see no reason to put one, unless it is truely needed. On a car with a stock/stockish turbo, I do not think it is needed. But YMMV.

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-09-2008, 09:22 PM
I just looked today. Shipped to cali is $42.

oldevodude
04-09-2008, 10:59 PM
ACDELCO 214474 (214-474) $ 16.73 $ 0.00 1 $ 16.73
ACDELCO PT374 $ 15.28 $ 0.00 1 $ 15.28
Shipping $ 9.23
Order Total $ 41.24


Price is cheap enough (IMO) to maybe try out although as Naji states if you can hold and control boost with 65 pill should I even bother. For now at least I will have the parts......

Rockauto just like the post(s) say

vortech_g35
04-09-2008, 11:36 PM
Nice Info, I am thinking of picking one of these up.

SoCalRedLine
04-10-2008, 10:18 AM
A lot of people tell me that I should switch to the GM 3-port. IMO, if it can be done with the pill, then there is no need to do it with the GM 3-port.

On a car with a stock/stockish turbo, I do not think it is needed. But YMMV.

only reason i did it... because im a GM fanboi :D... seriously. My favorite American car company. Also, my last 2 cars were GM.

But, its also used (or can be used, iirc) with the AEM EMS, and other EMS' to control boost.

I get what your saying, tho, why spend $40+ on this when a pill is $10 and does the same thing...

...but my answer to that is frequency. The GM 3-port is more responsive to the ECU's changes than the stock BCS. thats the only real advantage i can think of.

but there are others, iirc, it can hold 35psi without needing to rip it apart and change the pill. It doesnt need "t's." and so on...

But yea. If you have the pill and it works for you, use it. If it isnt broke then why fix it?

taenaive
04-10-2008, 04:59 PM
Try holdingÂ* 15 psi by 3500rpm 20 psi by 4000 rpm then hold 28 psi by 5000 rpm and back to 23 psi by redline with Stock BCS.Â* No can do!
But it isÂ* so easy with GM3-port. It is way more flexible.

what are you going to do when you switch to race gas at the track? or E85?
With MBC you can just turn the dial up, with GM-3ports just simple reflash.....
But with stock BCS,Â* Are you going to swap out the pill at the track or at the E85 gas station?Â* :2funny:

Also stock BCS is unstable under various loads or driving habits. those are the limitation of using pill mods to sustain the different boost levels.

SoCalRedLine
04-10-2008, 05:02 PM
^i hate you









...for living so close to an E85 station :D

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-10-2008, 05:52 PM
I only have 1 pill for 91 and 103 octane. I don't change anything.

Looney Tuning
04-10-2008, 06:40 PM
Try holding 15 psi by 3500rpm 20 psi by 4000 rpm then hold 28 psi by 5000 rpm and back to 23 psi by redline with Stock BCS. No can do!
But it is so easy with GM3-port. It is way more flexible.

Why would you want your boost to be like that in the first place? I would think that on a stock turbo your would want your boost to peak at 3500-3750 rpm and then taper down or hold to redline. Even on race gas, the boost on a stock turbo hits peak at the same 3750 rpm. Are you just giving a random example or is your car tuned like that?


what are you going to do when you switch to race gas at the track? or E85?
With MBC you can just turn the dial up, with GM-3ports just simple reflash.....
But with stock BCS, Are you going to swap out the pill at the track or at the E85 gas station? :2funny:

You do not have to swap pills. One pill is more than enough. The stock turbo runs out of breath by redline at 22-23 psi. A number 67 pill will take you there WITH the supporting mods of an intake and a test pipe. I am currently holding 21 psi by redline on 91 octane with the #65 pill. I am at 97% WGDC. With the #67 pill you drop the WGDC by 5%. That brings the WGDC down to 93% by redline while holding 21 psi. If I want to hold 22 psi, I will up the WGDC by 5% and that will get me there. At 22 psi, I have reached the limits of the stock turbo's efficiency. So why would I want more boost?


Also stock BCS is unstable under various loads or driving habits. those are the limitation of using pill mods to sustain the different boost levels.


Please show us your facts. Do you have data to support this statement? Please share it with us.

gsrIXevo
04-10-2008, 07:08 PM
** its funny that ppl feel the stock BCS is so unstable.... Works, Looney and some others from up North have been showing us that it can be done.Â* And it can hold where you set it... maybe the person tuning didnt know how to maintain the stock BCS... (i'm not dissin' anyone... but asking that u look at all the variables.**

WOT
04-10-2008, 07:59 PM
The oem bcs works fine...& the gm 3 port works fine too...

in my experience, i prefer the gm over the oem, purely for repeatability....tuned via aem ecu.

yeah, oem is pure plug-in, but get a spare oem bcs, cut off the connector, do some soldering & shrink tubing & you have a plug & play bcs.

what is acceptable for some people, maybe not acceptable for others.

Others like to tinker, so have at it.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 09:44 AM
for those that ordered through rockauto, how long did the part take to arrive?

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 09:49 AM
^3 days.




I wouldn't lump "Works" and "Stable boost" in the same sentence.

The BDEL tables are a mess.

159.4
159.4
...ok, got the point


I dont see how these tables are so messed up. With TBEC 0'd out for adding boost. It runs a stable 1.3 bar in 3rd and 4th, and runs a stable 1.4bar in 5th. I havent noticed any change in boost, no matter when i log (midnight, noon). With the GM bcs, i believe its largely dependent on the WGDC values.

If i wanted to boost 20psi, id put back the stock boost adding values in the TBEC. When i do that the car acts wierd and doesnt consistantly boost (itll boost 21 in 3rd, 20 in 4th and 19 in 5th...) Same thing a LOT of people are doing with the "pill" they just 0 out the boost adding part of the TBEC.

Correct me if im wrong, but this is how the car makes boost:
BWGDC sets what the WG is doing at any RPM.
Then it checks the Calc Load against the BDEL table.
Then it checks teh error, and runs it against the TBEC
The TBEC will change the BWGDC up or down to bring the boost back to the BDEL.

so, if you 0 out the top part of the TBEC it just doesnt add any boost. Leaving the overshoot, itll bring down WGDC to keep the Load in check with the BDEL.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 09:51 AM
fk! i ordered on wednesday.

well i'll have to be a pest and keep bugging you until you can thoon 4 me!

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 09:57 AM
fk! i ordered on wednesday.

well i'll have to be a pest and keep bugging you until you can thoon 4 me!

lol. no problem. i got a few things i want to try on your rom.

WNLancer
04-11-2008, 10:07 AM
^you mean in his room. hahaha j/k mike

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 10:08 AM
what? mike is an interior designer too!?!?

jack of all trades!

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 10:22 AM
:outofcloset: oh yessssss, john. I cant WAIT to start re-arranging your college/straight guy room. Its too...blah, it needs more SPICE

...haaAAAAAAAAaay! *snaps fingers*

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 10:31 AM
sweet...new parts installed, new thoon, and new room arrangement all in one shot!

WNLancer
04-11-2008, 10:32 AM
Mike im thinking of doing the same 3 port GM, its easy to interface with the tune i have right now right?

Looney Tuning
04-11-2008, 10:32 AM
I dont see how these tables are so messed up. With TBEC 0'd out for adding boost. It runs a stable 1.3 bar in 3rd and 4th, and runs a stable 1.4bar in 5th. I havent noticed any change in boost, no matter when i log (midnight, noon). With the GM bcs, i believe its largely dependent on the WGDC values.

Works' tuning strategy is different than ours. First, they do not zero out the top portion of the TBEC table. They use the stock TBEC as is. They do NOT use the mrfred boost control mods that speed up the times that the ECU looks at the TBEC table. They use the number 10 setting, we use the number 1 setting with the pill. That makes our approach much faster.

What Works does is max out the BDEL table. This way this way everytime the ECU checks for load it finds that you are not hitting your load target and the ECU then adds WGDC. If you look at the WGDC tables for a WORKS flash (and I have multiple flashs for Works cars), you will find that the WGDC is set lower than it should be for the target boost. For Example, on an Evo 8 they set the WGDC @ 3500 rpm to 56% inorder to hit 20-21 psi. They then rely on the TBEC to add 8-10% to that to bring it up to about 65-66%, which is where it should be. Since the BDEL is set sky high, then the WGDC must be set low and the TBEC relied on to add boost to hit the desired target.

Does this startegy give you inconsistent boost? I do not know. I have not done extensive testing to tell. My hunch is that it does not. One day I will flash one of their flashes to my ECU and test the boost.

The problem with the Works flash is not the boost, but rather the timing that is too advanced and causes knock. The timing is set to about 15* by redline on an Evo 9. That is just too much, IMO.


Correct me if im wrong, but this is how the car makes boost:
BWGDC sets what the WG is doing at any RPM.
Then it checks the Calc Load against the BDEL table.
Then it checks teh error, and runs it against the TBEC
The TBEC will change the BWGDC up or down to bring the boost back to the BDEL.

That is correct, but there are many different loads in the ECU. Since you have not performed the mrfred mods for the ECU, the load that you are following is different than the load that we are following. The mods that mrfred did allowed us to log a 2byte load that is closer to the load target that we use when we set BDEL+BCLO. That is the way I understand it.

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 10:59 AM
^Wow... thank you for sharing that tuning strategy. That is very informative (as always). I think i will have to try this.

You pretty much have it as far as what im doing for the tunes. But, i am not really comparing the Calc load to the BDEL + BCLO - 10 like i read somewhere online. I am mainly looking at the WGDC and the WGDC correction and the PSI when i log. I look for the areas that the ECU adjusts the WGDC, and then I change the WGDC settings to match what the ECU was trying to do. That will tell me where the WGDC is too high and its surpassing its target load.

Once i get more time this weekend i am going to play around with putting the stock TBEC back in there, and seeing how well she does. My goal for the first install and tune was to match the stock Boost curve, and eliminate the taper. I can show a few logs to prove that i have gotten this.

Again, i cant thank you or Bryan enough, or MANY of the guys on EvoM for sharing their knowledge. I wouldnt have tried any of this if it werent for you guys. :D

Looney Tuning
04-11-2008, 11:25 AM
My thoughts on ECU boost control are continuously evolving. I am begining to think that the BDEL+BCLO is not that important to setting CONSISTENT boost. I am going out on a limb here and I might be flamed for it, but I think that the BDEL+BCLO is used by Mitsu primarily as a safety device in case of an overload condition arises.

If you look at the lower portion of the TBEC table, you will note that in case of overload, the ECU will pull 12% WGDC. I think that is primarily intended to protect the engine. If you want to test this, then try this. start your logger and drive at around 55-60 mph in 5th gear. Then quickly downshift to 4th and mash the throttle. Chekc your logs and see how you get a load spike and the ECU quickly pulls WGDC to protect the engine. Mitsu has engineered so many safety devices into the ECU. That is why the ECU, IMO, is the best device to tune and protect your engine.

Again, this theory of mine is just my latest thoughts on the matter and I could be way off.

Sr20kidD
04-11-2008, 11:29 AM
fk nj... the more you know...

Looney Tuning
04-11-2008, 11:47 AM
Once i get more time this weekend i am going to play around with putting the stock TBEC back in there, and seeing how well she does. My goal for the first install and tune was to match the stock Boost curve, and eliminate the taper. I can show a few logs to prove that i have gotten this.

Just be aware that the stock TBEC might be too aggressive for the GM 3-port. You might want to run less values in the TBEC tables. But since you are running a slower WGDC Correction value (10), then you might be OK. Bryan, suggested to run lower TBEC values with GM 3 port when using the mr fred mods and setting the WGDC Correction value to 4.

IMO, you should perform the mrfred ECU boost control load mods and follow Bryan's advice. He has tuned so many GM 3-ports and is THE expert.

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 11:50 AM
My thoughts on ECU boost control are continuously evolving. I am begining to think that the BDEL+BCLO is not that important to setting CONSISTENT boost. I am going out on a limb here and I might be flamed for it, but I think that the BDEL+BCLO is used by Mitsu primarily as a safety device in case of an overload condition arises.

If you look at the lower portion of the TBEC table, you will note that in case of overload, the ECU will pull 12% WGDC. I think that is primarily intended to protect the engine. If you want to test this, then try this. start your logger and drive at around 55-60 mph in 5th gear. Then quickly downshift to 4th and mash the throttle. Chekc your logs and see how you get a load spike and the ECU quickly pulls WGDC to protect the engine. Mitsu has engineered so many safety devices into the ECU. That is why the ECU, IMO, is the best device to tune and protect your engine.

Again, this theory of mine is just my latest thoughts on the matter and I could be way off.

Thats a good question. I set my Bdel very low at the 3-3.5 range to get rid of that horrible spike i waas getting. When i used the first map posted, i would spike 1.5-1.7bar and then settle in at 1.3-1.4. Ive noticed that lowering my BDEL changed the amount the ECU will allow the spike to overshoot the boost. Now it doesnt spike passed 1.44 in 5th @ 2.5K.

I see what you are saying about the ECU mainly using those as limits. I think it would do all of us some good to mess around with these a bit and see what the ECU does. One major thing that intrigued me was this post, i missed this one...i was sick this dy :( )
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=333479
I am now a little more interested in what it allows the BCS to do.

Illl spend some time this weekend playing around with the BDEL and BCLO settings and see what happens. I really want to try what bryan was saying with the 200 BCLO and see what that does for resolution.

the thing that we all always have to remember, is that WE are making up the values for these tables. Im sure Mitsu put all these in here for reasons that all of us dont completely understand yet.


IMO, you should perform the mrfred ECU boost control load mods and follow Bryan's advice. He has tuned so many GM 3-ports and is THE expert.

yea... ive gotten that, that is mainly the reason i havent done the "boost control" mods yet. Especially since Tephra's V5 is based of the OEM boost setup.

I have the tables but havent edited them because i want to understant the "OEM" setup (or at least the way ECUflash is setup when you DL it) better first, then start changing the way the car does boost.

taenaive
04-11-2008, 12:32 PM
Why would you want your boost to be like that in the first place? I would think that on a stock turbo your would want your boost to peak at 3500-3750 rpm and then taper down or hold to redline. Even on race gas, the boost on a stock turbo hits peak at the same 3750 rpm. Are you just giving a random example or is your car tuned like that?

Yes, currently, my car is tunned similiar to that. Don't ask me why. It is a long story. Â*Only difference is that I hold 24 psi at the redline....um even after redline. :)





You do not have to swap pills. One pill is more than enough. The stock turbo runs out of breath by redline at 22-23 psi. A number 67 pill will take you there WITH the supporting mods of an intake and a test pipe. I am currently holding 21 psi by redline on 91 octane with the #65 pill. I am at 97% WGDC. With the #67 pill you drop the WGDC by 5%. That brings the WGDC down to 93% by redline while holding 21 psi. If I want to hold 22 psi, I will up the WGDC by 5% and that will get me there. At 22 psi, I have reached the limits of the stock turbo's efficiency. So why would I want more boost?

May be you don't want more boost but I want more boost because I run E85. even my stock 8 turbo runs out of breath much later with E85 due to the stoich being 9.7:1. Top end is incredible with E85. My timing is at *18 at the redline!



Please show us your facts. Do you have data to support this statement? Please share it with us.


Sorry, no logs for that one. It was long time ago. All I remember was the frustration of Stock BCS not giving me any consistency. Also, It was so sensitive to fuel and timing changes. Finally, I gave up on it and switched to rock solid MBC.

Well..Back then, I wasn't much informed about how to tune stock BCS like today. Swapping out freaking custom made pills gave me even more anger against stock BCS.

At the end. I gave the good use of stock BCS ( being a connector for stock harness after cannibalized). RIPÂ* :knuppel2:

taenaive
04-11-2008, 12:59 PM
Guys, Don't use BDEL based control. That is such old school now. :-P
Use JDM map sensor based control.Â* using load to control boost is another variable that gives you the inconsistency. stock ECU does many tricks to the load values. invest $120 on JDM map sensor and start tunning based on desired boost! Stock ECU will never interfere with the JDM map sensor readings. You also can log your boost at the same time. JDM map sensor and GM3 port was the primary reason I stayed away from getting myself expensive high end EBCs.

WOT
04-11-2008, 01:13 PM
Hello nj, socal, alan678, bryan @ gst & taenaive- what tools/software are you guys using to log your boost, ign & afr?

what software offers the most resolution/samples per second?

Is there a all-in-one logging/analysis package?

i use a aem ecu & software & it's amazing. However i want to start tuning with the oem ecu too.

TIA, aby

AWDTURBO
04-11-2008, 01:17 PM
i know nj and i we use evoscan to log....it logs just about everything if u have all the right parts for ex. jdm map sensor, zeitronix & innovative w/b

Evo8urv8
04-11-2008, 01:44 PM
i know nj and i we use evoscan to log....it logs just about everything if u have all the right parts for ex. jdm map sensor, zeitronix & innovative w/b


Sorry for the noob question but when u said u can use evoscan to log everything with the use of the jdm map sensor, what does it actually log? boost or something else too? :?

I know I need either zeitronix or innovative for my wideband needs. :-(

LBEVOGSR
04-11-2008, 01:54 PM
With the JDM sensor and Evoscan you can logg boost. The use of the sensor has been used for a very long time now, its nothing new. Most of us just bought it from Evom before. But now since its a stock part on the X, its easier for everybody to get.

SoCalRedLine
04-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Hello nj, socal, alan678, bryan @ gst & taenaive- what tools/software are you guys using to log your boost, ign & afr?

what software offers the most resolution/samples per second?

Is there a all-in-one logging/analysis package?

i use a aem ecu & software & it's amazing. However i want to start tuning with the oem ecu too.

TIA, aby

I have:
Innovate LC-1 (the old ass one that came in a white/teal box, from my old car)
Autometer Sport Comp EGT in Tanabe bung (from my old car)
Mitsubishi Evo X MAP sensor
Open port Tactrix 1.3U logging cable using, Evoscan (logs: WB, timing, RPM, boost, everything...)
Sewell USB to DB9 adapter cable (specifically made for Vista Machines)
Dell Vostro 1500 running a POS Vista OS (that gave me 1000000 problems when i started tuning)

Other bits:
RS gauges (cause the RS' had it first :P)
Blitz DTT (it actually does work for recording peak boost, and warns for going past a preset BAR value. its fairly accurate 99% of the time)

I believe that the baud rate that you can get away with all the time on Evoscan is, 15625 hz. If you only log timing and WB and RPM i think you can set it to 16400 or 19200 hz... i cant recall, but there is a thread on EvoM somewhere.

If you get a system like the Zetronix or LMA-3, if i recall correctly, you can log MUCH faster baud rates, as the sensors for those units just piggyback off the stock sensors. They (at least the LMA-3) will log any 0-5v analog signal, and can be adjusted to read different values for different sensors (i.e. boost, oil pressute. EGT. ect...)

That is why the ECU, IMO, is the best device to tune and protect your engine.


I didnt see this until now, but i wholeheartedly agree. Mitsu didnt spend bazillions of dollars to send out a crappy Engine Management System. They have optimized the knock control, and fuel/timing tables to allow the car to be ran in stock form in MANY various different situations (i.e. high altitude, hot days, etc.) and still go 100+K miles.

taenaive
04-11-2008, 03:28 PM
yeah, EvoScan rules now. O0

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-11-2008, 05:56 PM
The ZT2 has its own boost sensor. It is within 1 psi of the JDM so that would work instead of.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 05:58 PM
the zeitronix boost sensor replace the factory/jdm one?

im asking because i have the jdm map sensor and plan on getting the zeitronix zt2 display along with all the necessary sensors...i would just opt not to get the boost right?

taenaive
04-11-2008, 09:07 PM
yeah, that would be redundant. JDM map sensor does the same job as ZTX's boost sensor. Get LC-1 instead and call it a day. a lot cheaper that way.

well... if you want to monitor EGT also, then, ZTX is da choice for you and just opt out the boost sensor.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 09:25 PM
yeah, that would be redundant. JDM map sensor does the same job as ZTX's boost sensor. Get LC-1 instead and call it a day. a lot cheaper that way.

well... if you want to monitor EGT also, then, ZTX is da choice for you and just opt out the boost sensor.

this is great news...i might score a good deal on just the lcd unit and i'll just have to get the other sensors besides boost.

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-11-2008, 09:55 PM
Zt uses a separate boost solenoid. I have the jdm sensor and the ZT2. I like the ZT2 because I can see the boost for everyday driving. When I log I do both of them to compare and they are pretty close. I have a post on here somewhere, where I compared them.

I got my ZT2 with LCD w/boost for $454 shipped. That is a damn good deal.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 10:08 PM
Zt uses a separate boost solenoid. I have the jdm sensor and the ZT2. I like the ZT2 because I can see the boost for everyday driving. When I log I do both of them to compare and they are pretty close. I have a post on here somewhere, where I compared them.

I got my ZT2 with LCD w/boost for $454 shipped. That is a damn good deal.


the complete zt2 package is $399 paypal'd. once i sell a few things off my forsale ad im definitely ordering one!

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-11-2008, 11:45 PM
Zt uses a separate boost solenoid. I have the jdm sensor and the ZT2. I like the ZT2 because I can see the boost for everyday driving. When I log I do both of them to compare and they are pretty close. I have a post on here somewhere, where I compared them.

I got my ZT2 with LCD w/boost for $454 shipped. That is a damn good deal.


the complete zt2 package is $399 paypal'd. once i sell a few things off my forsale ad im definitely ordering one!


Is that new? Through who? I will take 2 and resell them.

j_nizzle
04-11-2008, 11:48 PM
http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm

Zt-2 + BLACK LCD Display Bundle
New black anodized aluminum case. This is a very nice and deep shade of black, not cheap grayish black imitation anodizing.
Includes the Zt-2 Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Meter, Wideband Oxygen Sensor, Sensor Harness, Signal Harness, PC Serial Cable, Datalogging Software, Installation Instructions, 2 pin EGT connector to retrofit your EGT probe and Zeitronix LCD Display with peak and hold feature. High contrast LCD visible even in a direct sunlight. Made in the USA.

$399

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-12-2008, 12:03 AM
http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm

Zt-2 + BLACK LCD Display Bundle
New black anodized aluminum case. This is a very nice and deep shade of black, not cheap grayish black imitation anodizing.
Includes the Zt-2 Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Meter, Wideband Oxygen Sensor, Sensor Harness, Signal Harness, PC Serial Cable, Datalogging Software, Installation Instructions, 2 pin EGT connector to retrofit your EGT probe and Zeitronix LCD Display with peak and hold feature. High contrast LCD visible even in a direct sunlight. Made in the USA.

$399


That does not include the Boost solenoid. That is another $109. TTP still has a group buy going on, on EvoM for for $454 shipped with the boost. Well worth it. EGt I think is another $77, if you want it. I never got it. no need.

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-12-2008, 12:05 AM
This is what you need.

http://www.zeitronix.com/order/MAP-120.jpg

Package 3 - $454 shipped.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=309883

vortech_g35
04-12-2008, 12:09 AM
Nice find!

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-12-2008, 12:14 AM
I ordered mine in December from them.

j_nizzle
04-12-2008, 12:21 AM
454 shipped is a great price. i wonder if RRE gets a break of some sort from zeitronix, they are a vendor here/dealer of zeitronix. i figure if ttp can get such a good price and still make money...

Driving_Miss_Daisy
04-12-2008, 12:25 AM
454 shipped is a great price. i wonder if RRE gets a break of some sort from zeitronix, they are a vendor here/dealer of zeitronix. i figure if ttp can get such a good price and still make money...


Doesn't hurt to try.

alan678
04-12-2008, 12:32 AM
Yay! I got the goods in the mail today...let the tuning begin!

SoCalRedLine
05-21-2008, 02:02 AM
a lot of people have asked me how to tune the boost control stuff in ECUflash...

in a half a$$ed attempt to make sense i came up with this. It tells you how to make sense of:
Boost Desired Engine Load (BDEL)
Max Wastegate Duty Cycle (MWGDC, or WGDC in Evoscan)
Turbo Boost Error correction (TBEC)


Tuning is like chaising your tail... you get one thing nailed down, then chase the other end of it, and end up having to go back and nail down the other part agian... hence BDEL, TBEC and MWGDC

in order to get the most consistant boost, you set the MWGDC without any Turbo Boost Error correction (other than maybe overshoot), then log a bunch to make sure it really is set, and works--18psi all gears, heat, etc...

Then you chase after your BDEL numbers (because before they didnt do much other than prevent overshoot). I lower them about 10 counts at a time until they start taking away MWGDC in my logs. That tells me where the boost made by the MWGDC correlates to the BDEL. i.e. 20psi @ 4000rpm = 67% WGDC @ 4000rpm = 135 @ 4000 in the BDEL table (for example only, not actual numbers)

Now you go back and put back the correction and re-tune the BDEL to give consistant MWGDC AND boost numbers on logs. This in not the easy part... your BDEL number means something different depending on the air temp, baro, coolant temp, etc. so it still needs to be fine tuned.

so, nail down the MWGDC in consistant logs, then mess with BDEL to give consistant MWGDC in logs, then throw back in the correction and start all over again ...lol
================================================== ===================
When youre out logging:

First, ignore the "WGDC Correction" number in evoscan itself. It really doesnt mean anything.Â*

What you need to do is look at your MWGDC logs versus RPM in Evoscan. Look up yout MWGDC at the area where it starts to fluctiate, i.e. MWGDC = 67% @ 4000 rpm in evoscan.
Log:
RPM
Boost
WGDC

Then open your current ROM in ECUflash and look at the MWGDC table. Look what it says at 4000 RPM.

If it says that MWGDC should be 75% at that RPM, then you know that your TBEC is correcting downwards (less boost) by 8%.

What that means is that you overshot your BDEL number @ 4000RPM, by a certain amount of Load %.

In order to figure out that load % difference, you need to look at where -8% falls in the TBEC table. the boost correction number is on the right, and the number to the left of -8 will tell you the amount you over shot your BDEL number.

Then you can tell what number you need to change your BDEL by, i.e. + 5% to the load value @ 4000, to in order to stop the correction. Then go back and check what your logs are saying about boost and WGDC.


This also works for all you people running PSI based boost control.

Replace:
MWGDC with the term "Baseline Boost"
BDEL with "Desired boost (or whatever its called)"
TBEC with "Boost correction"

One major tuning company makes the BDEL add 10% MWGDC in gears 1-3, so that the boost remains a constant 20ish PSI in all gears.

some people lower the amount that the TBEC table can change the MWGDC, or change the sensor's refresh rate, or only use the boost reduction part of the TBEC...

Basically, there are lots of possibilities with this type of boost control.

CASH$ MONEY
05-21-2008, 02:40 AM
Mike tutor me.... :-\


$$

SoCalRedLine
05-21-2008, 02:47 AM
^lol... you got it! O0

its funny tho, im basically just reiterating the entire "Engine tuning 102: Stock BCS" thread in 1 post. :D

CASH$ MONEY
05-21-2008, 02:48 AM
hopefully tomrrow goes good homie... and good food places in irvine?

Looney Tuning
05-21-2008, 09:13 AM
One major tuning company makes the BDEL add 10% MWGDC in gears 1-3, so that the boost remains a constant 20ish PSI in all gears.



The Company is Works. And I am begining to think that their approach is spot on. Here is what I did the other day. I logged a car with a stock tune, stock BDEL+TBEC+MWGDC etc...

Stock the MWGDC is set to 100% since the pill has a large hole. So the WGDC tables are not operative. What is operative are the BDEL+BCLO tables. When the logged load overshoots the target load in the tables, then the ECU begins to pull WGDC based on what it sees in the TBEC table. For example, on this car @ 3750 rpm the load error was 6.2, so the ECU looked at the load error number in the TBEC table and found that a 6.2 load error corresponds to about -4.5% WGDC. So the ECU openned the WGDC by 4.5%. That dropped the WGDC from 100% to 95.4%.

Then I remembered that I had logs from a stock car that used the 100% WGDC, but had the BDEL tables maxxed out. Surely, this car should hold boost better since the ECU is not openning the WGDC based on load overshoot? Infact, you have load undershoot in this case.

I looked at the logs from this second Evo and found that the boost behaved pretty much the same as the first car with the active BDEL tables. In both cars peak boost was around 18-19 psi and it tapered to 14.xx psi. Furthermore, the boost on the car with the maxxed out BDEL tables was consistent over three WOT runs.

All this made me start doubting the purpose of the BDEL tables. I doubt that their purpose is to make boost consistent. I am begining to think that the BDEL+BCLO tables are some sort of safety mechanism that mitsu engineered in the rom.

Another thing to note when designing your BDEL tables is this. When doing 1st-to-2nd-to-3rd WOT runs the car will hit higher load than it does when doing 3rd/4th gear runs only. So if you make a BDEL on the bassis of 3rd gear runs, then you will overshoot your BDEL in 1-2-3 WOT run which will make the ECU open the WGDC and lower boost. So by necessity, you need to make your BDEL higher that you actually log in 3rd gear.

Yet another fly in the ointment of BDEL, is the fact that at higher altitude the car will hit higher loads than at lower altitude. So your BDEL MUST be made higher to take that into account, otherwise the boost will get pulled.

Which brings me back to what Works did. Works maxxed out the BDEL tables so all of what I said is not longer a concern. Since the max WGDC addition is 10%, then why not max out the BDEL tables and let the TBEC add the 10% WGDC. Then lower the MWGDC table by 10% to compensate to what the TBEC is adding.

ileaveit2bevo
05-21-2008, 10:23 AM
works did something right? I don't believe

Looney Tuning
05-21-2008, 12:30 PM
If I hadn't seen big W boost curves from 8 out of 10 P2 cars then I might go along with what Nj is saying.

The way the P2 is setup, it is just not fast enough to run on error correction alone. The interval is 10, the BDEL + BCLO offset too small, way way too much upward/downward error numbers in the error correction table. What happens is it turns into a huge clusterF when error correction kicks in, which the signature "W" (for works) boost curve comes into play.


First, I have not logged a car with the Works boost control numbers, so I will take your word for it.

Second, I am talking about the strategy used and not the flash itself. Their strategy is to max out the BDEL, but they do not set it high enough to prevent the error correction table from kicking in. For example, If I was to use their flash on my car, then the target load for my car with their flash will be 239-238 throughout the rpm range. That is simpley not enough for my car since I am logging ~264 load @ 3500 rpm in 3rd-4th gears. So of course the car is going to pull boost given the low BDEL+BCLO setting that they have. It seems that they did not execute the flash properly given than many different mod levels that are out there for different Evos. After all this is an e-mail flash.

What I question is the need to have a very accurate BDEL+BCLO given that:

a) load seems to be higher in the lower gear than in the higher gears. I have done multiple 1st-2nd-3rd gears and I have seen 275 load @ 4K in 1st and 260 load @ 5500 in 2nd and 3rd. when I do a 3rd gear pull I rarely see more than 240 load @ 5500 rpm and 240-245 @ 4k. So the target load must be made higher to accomodate the lower gears. If the load tables are only tailored to 3rd gear, then boost will be pulled in 1st and 2nd gear.

b) load is higher at higher altitude than at sea level. My testing has shown that logged load at lancaster is higher by about 10-20 points than logged load at sea level. That must be accomodated as well. So the target load table must be made higher to take into account altitude. Some of the cars that I tune go to SOW at 2360 ft. That must be taken into account.

Given a and b, it seems that target load table must be made higher than actual logged load. If that is not done, then the logged load will on some occasions be too high and that will make the ECU pull boost assuming that you are running a full TBEC table. If you make the target load higher, then by necessity the ECU is going to add WGDCC to the target WGDC in the tables. When that happens, then you will have to run lower WGDC numbers in the MWGDC tables. In the end we have a similar strategy to that of Works'. Their fault was not to set the load high enough to accomodate all the different mods on evos out there, nor to take into account the load in lower gear and load at altitude.

CASH$ MONEY
05-21-2008, 03:35 PM
jesus christ bryan!!!


how do you know allllll this



you give me a headache!!!!Â* :-P



When you coming to SOCAL?Â* :tickedoff:

Evo8urv8
05-21-2008, 03:44 PM
Bryan, check your pm's, please? (Hopefully, it went through) :grin:

Looney Tuning
05-21-2008, 05:01 PM
Another thing to know is that higher gears take more boost to achieve the same load. That's mostly the reason you see slightly higher boost in higher gears.

Here is another datalog to illustrate this plus more:


Here is one from a car that I recently tuned. The peak load is almost the same in all the gears. It is slightly higher in 1st gear, though. By redline the load is almost the same in all three gears. The car in question had a TBE w/stock cat and AEM intake. As you said the mods cause some differences in load. The boost is very close @ 6900 rpm in all three gears; 0.13 psiÂ* separate 1st and 2nd and 3rd gears from each other.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/EVO/Sang/load-boost_1-2-3.gif

leaveit2bevo
05-22-2008, 12:07 AM
jesus christ bryan!!!


how do you know allllll this



you give me a headache!!!! :-P



When you coming to SOCAL? :tickedoff:


jesus how many tunes do you need

CASH$ MONEY
05-22-2008, 12:20 AM
0.0.01

SoCalRedLine
05-22-2008, 01:14 AM
holy cr@p! :D

damn you Bryan and Naji!

why you guys gotta go cramming in more information, my brain is too full with finals week, an all...lol

Thanks for giving your input on the idea... all of this conversation should be put up in the "Engine Tuning 102: BCS" sticky thats in this forum. *coughMODScough*

CASH$ MONEY
05-22-2008, 01:34 AM
Mike.... :smitten:


nuff said.

Looney Tuning
05-25-2008, 12:24 PM
When you coming to SOCAL? :tickedoff:

He was here not too long ago...you must have missed him

SoCalRedLine
06-12-2008, 01:55 AM
^i would have gone if he was down here :\ (during the weekend :D...lol.)

random PM:


Hey,

I read your write up about boost control but had a few questions. My car has already been ecu boost tuned, but I need to tweak the settings again because my boost curve has changed [because i changed some of the hardware since my tune, and it needs to be accounted for in a re-tune]. Instead of spiking then slowly dropping by redline, now it's spiking, dropping, rising, then dropping. So I want to try and change the settings to get a more consistent boost curve. What do you recommend? I was thinking of following the instructions and zeroing out the TBEC, then logging and adjusting my BDEL numbers to try and get a consistent boost curve dialed in. Does that sound right? How do you know what numbers to use for the TBEC?

Thx
R.C. Boost


It sounds like you are now overshooting your BDEL (most likely the warmer weather) and the TBEC is going into "roller coaster correction mode"...too high, then too low, then too high, then too low, etc.

What to do:
-make the top portion of the TBEC into 0's. This is the boost adding correction. Leave the overshoot correction intact (the lower portion of the table).
-Tune your WGDC in consecutive 4th-6th gear pulls, and adjust your curve for your desired boost. (more WGDC%= more boost)
-get that WGDC tuned solid, and then start working on the BDEL in 5th/6th gear pulls (you dont have to redline it...4-5K rpm's are enough to get an idea)
-log WGDC in your logging program and watch for downward corrections to your WGDC (i.e. if you have it set to 50% WGDC at 2500rpm in ECUflash, and your logger is saying its 40% at that RPM in your logs...you know that you are overshooting your BDEL and the TBEC is correcting by -10%)
-Now go back to your tune in ECUflash and look at the TBEC table. look at each area on the log where your WGDC doesnt match what you inputted into the WGDC table in ECUflash. (i.e. Where it says "-10" in the right hand column, the amount (%) you overshot the BDEL is on the left column. In the case of -10% WGDC, (stock) you overshot BDEL by around 10-12%)
-Open up your BDEL table and change the amount located at 2500 RPM and increase it by 12% (or whatever amount you overshot the BDEL).
- smooth out the rest of the table where it over corrects, then flash it to your car and re-log. repeat the process for a while until your WGDC is working without correction.

That should get you a solid boost profile that doesnt change much with weather conditions.

If you are looking to put back in the boost adding part of the TBEC...plan on doing a hell of a lot more tuning in 5th/6th gear. I usually use the stock values, but they usually lead to roller coaster over/under correction. You have to fine tune the BDEL in every single area to make sure the roller coaster doesnt happen...but then on a random day thats different weather your boost may go into roller coaster mode again. I have been using this to help combat the problem:
TBEC
-20 = 0
-17.5 = 0
-15 = 2%
-12.5 = 3.5%
-10 = 2%
-7.5 = 1%
-5 = 0
-2.5 = 0
0 = 0
2.5 = 0
5 = -1%
7.5 = -3.5%
10 = -5%
12.5 = -6.5%
15 = -13%
17.5 = -13%
19.8438 = -13%

There are a lot of different options available, tho. This is just 1 method out of a bunch of different methods of attacking boost. Stock TBEC values can be used, but you have to do more fine tuning of the BDEL, possibly other tables related to air temp correction and barometric correction... all of which im not willing to touch at the moment on my current tune. This method is working fine for me at the moment, why change :D

hope this explaination helps a bit
-socal



Afternote:
This car had changed a few of the motor hardware making the boost different than when it was tuned. It was a simple fix, just re-tune the MWGDC tables for the desired boost.

whenever you change things that will affect the airflow of the turbo, you will need to contact your tuner to help you re-tune your MWGDC tables.

twisted evo
11-09-2008, 07:31 PM
excellent right up, i'm planning on this mod when i install my ems and get my 9 tuned. thanks O0

littlejap33
02-13-2009, 12:53 PM
goood write up man