Upcoming Tune [Archive]

xtremeIX

07-29-2008, 11:58 AM

TT, I have an appointment for a dyno tune with you guys on August 8th. I'm running a 50/50 mix of water/meth (Aquamist HFS-1) and an FP green turbo, GSC S1 cams with a bunch of other supporting modifications. The thing I'm concerned about is the map switching I have setup. Is that going to be a problem with tuning my car? I have a light indicator to show if I'm on the alternate map or the base map so we'll know if it switches to the base map during the tune.

GilbertFlores

07-29-2008, 12:04 PM

run 100% meth!!!!

100%ftw!!!

you should get a good number with those mods O0
somewhere in the 425whp range or so. O0

1WkdEvo

07-29-2008, 12:33 PM

BTW OP, your map switching should be fine. Just tell Alfred ahead of time so he knows what is coming in

Alfred@TTech

07-29-2008, 12:48 PM

TT, I have an appointment for a dyno tune with you guys on August 8th.Â* I'm running a 50/50 mix of water/meth (Aquamist HFS-1) and an FP green turbo, GSC S1 cams with a bunch of other supporting modifications.Â* The thing I'm concerned about is the map switching I have setup.Â* Is that going to be a problem with tuning my car?Â* I have a light indicator to show if I'm on the alternate map or the base map so we'll know if it switches to the base map during the tune.

This wont be a issue whatsoever as long as we have the setup you described.Â* See you soon!

Alfred

xtremeIX

07-29-2008, 12:52 PM

Okay, cool. Â*I'm hoping my power will be in the area of 400whp - Â*425whp with the 50/50. Â*I'm running a 3" test pipe, 3" downpipe, ported 02 housing and manifold, ARP head studs, upgraded actuator, 750cc injectors, 3" exhaust, modified boost hose (#65 pill) and the mods I mentioned in the first post.

1WkdEvo

07-29-2008, 01:35 PM

Should not be a problem to hit that with those mods...EASY!!

christoph562

08-01-2008, 05:17 PM

Expect good things :]

Nice set up btw

oh and run 100% meth.

xtremeIX

08-05-2008, 07:07 AM

Does anybody know what the max horsepower is for the stock bottom end? This is something I would like to know by the time I go in for my tune on Friday. I don't plan on putting the rev limiter any higher than 7500 rpm.

1WkdEvo

08-05-2008, 07:11 AM

500whp is generally considered the max for the stock internals.Â* Some will tell you that a lot of people run it higher and that is kind of true as evidenced by a thread on Evom, but most people will tell you that 500 is widely considered to be the danger point and that if you want to exceed that, just spend the money to reinforce it.

Myself for example.Â* My setup has been capable of over 500whp for some time, but I chose to keep it at 450 +/- until my current bottom end build is complete.Â* Take your time and buy parts as you can to save on cost and then once you have everything, along with some extra money for engine pull, machining labor, and engine build then get that done.

With your setup you should not get a whif of 500whp yet.Â* Run an EMS, a better intake manifold, and some extreme tuning and maybe you will

1WkdEvo

08-05-2008, 07:23 AM

Also based on what I have seen and heard, cali4g63 is going to run a gt35r kit along with EMS and run this with meth or some ther form of high octane fuel/mix and do so on a stock bottom end, easily exceeding 500who on a dynojet. He may be able to give you his angle on this and what the pros are to doing so. I see him on here so I am sure he will give his 2 cents

Granny Shifter

08-05-2008, 10:32 AM

^listen to this guy. his car is a beast and he has too much money.

1WkdEvo

08-05-2008, 01:11 PM

Thanks Kevin, I love you too :-)

GilbertFlores

08-05-2008, 01:45 PM

people i know thathave run 100% meth have hit around 425-435whp depending on the dyno so your numbers will be close to that maybe a little under because your running a 50/50 mix.

sean or 1wkdevo knows his shit and yeah 500 is considered to be the limit mark. you can take it over 500 but its all about how long it will last.

you have a nice mod list and Alfred will take care of you no doubt. O0

caLi4G63

08-06-2008, 08:06 AM

xtreme ix,

I had a similar setup to yours and was running on 100% meth. my numbers were 387hp/385tq. every car is different so your numbers will vary. I don't know what you use your EVO for but with the power I made I was able to manage a 11.65@116mph at the drag strip. If you do break the 400whp barrier your motor should hold up just fine; the stock bottom end is solid.

As stated by 1WkdEvo, I plan on going past the 500whp mark and getting some solid numbers. I don't DD my EVO so I don't rely on it for my everday commutes. From the research I've done and what I have read the stock bottom end should be able to handle the power I produce but I do have plans to upgrade the block with adequate internals to handle the higher power levels in the near future.

Good luck on the Dyno and post your results!

xtremeIX

08-06-2008, 08:15 AM

BAD NEWS!!!! I stripped one of the smaller exhaust manifold studs that go into the head!! :tickedoff: Will this be a problem tuning my car? :-\ Anybody know if I can get an exhaust stud at a local autoparts store? Is it possible to take the exhaust manifold off without taking the turbo or housing off? I may be able to get it replaced by Friday. HELP!!

caLi4G63

08-06-2008, 08:30 AM

I'm thinking you should be able to purchase one stud at your local Mitsu. dealer. I personally would not head to the dyno with a stripped stud. Yes, you can remove the exhaust manifold without literally taking the turbo off. Fix the problem if possible if not re-schedule your appointment.

mrcotija

08-08-2008, 02:20 PM

wow, how did you strip the stud? I would think that the head would strip before the stud does, if you were really giving it that much force. The head is aluminum.... But Eh, what do I know, I've never taken a turbo off one of these cars..

1WkdEvo

08-08-2008, 03:07 PM

They just had you keep the potty clean when you were there, right Ray?

xtremeIX

08-08-2008, 05:17 PM

The stud is fixed and I'm ready for a tune. Tuning Technologies was supposed to call me if their Saturday morning appointment cancelled...I guess he didn't. :-(

Oh, well, perhaps next week!!

Smogrunner

08-10-2008, 01:18 PM

The stud is fixed and I'm ready for a tune. Tuning Technologies was supposed to call me if their Saturday morning appointment cancelled...I guess he didn't. :-(

Oh, well, perhaps next week!!

It'll be worth the wait...

xtremeIX

08-14-2008, 07:34 AM

Okay, I have an appointment setup for August 22, 2008. Can't wait!! O0

xtremeIX

08-19-2008, 01:55 PM

mrcotija

08-19-2008, 02:18 PM

A couple of quick questions for the workers at TT:

1. Since I have the map switching which uses an edited ROM (tephra v5.10) will you have to use my laptop for the tuning? If so, I need to make sure I bring the AC power chord so my battery doesn't die during a flash!! ...that would suck..lol!

2. I know some tuners don't like the VTA BOV's. I have the GFB BOV which allows you to recirculate or VTA using different positions and right now it's totally VTA. Will I have to change this for the tune and thereafter?

1. Alfred tunes the car off his own laptop, and emails you the Map(s).
2. VTA is great for Drag, But because you are daily driving, I would recommend setting it to Recirc. On the stock ecu/maf, recirculated air is calculated by the maf. When you VTA, the maf is still calculating air to be recirculating, and when it doesnt see that air, it causes a studder at parcial throttle off boost. So if you're DDing your vehicle or tracking it other than Drag, I would recommend you set it to recirc.

xtremeIX

08-25-2008, 07:09 AM

Here are the numbers for the tune:

91 Octane Map
Horsepower: 346
Torque: 315

HFS-1 Aquamist Map
Horsepower: 386
Torque: 358

Alfred was very meticulous with my car and did a great job!!Â*

I'll be going back once I find out what it will take to hit my goal of 400whp!

mr.paick

08-25-2008, 08:03 AM

can you post up the graph!?!??!

05CBR

08-25-2008, 08:23 AM

Here are the numbers for the tune:

91 Octane Map
Horsepower: 346
Torque: 315

HFS-1 Aquamist Map
Horsepower: 386
Torque: 358

Alfred was very meticulous with my car and did a great job!!

I'll be going back once I find out what it will take to hit my goal of 400whp!

These numbers were with EcuBoost control?

1WkdEvo

08-25-2008, 09:28 AM

Very nice

silvrEVOIXn818

08-25-2008, 11:40 AM

nice...congrats! O0

xtremeIX

08-25-2008, 12:16 PM

Yes, these numbers were with ECU Based boost control and the temperature inside the dyno bay was 102 degrees.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b269/jtemens/Dyno1.jpg

05CBR

08-25-2008, 12:24 PM

Nice to see that TT is doing EcuBoost! Any boost plots?

1WkdEvo

08-25-2008, 07:53 PM

You did not just go there Smoggy, lol

caLi4G63

08-26-2008, 01:47 PM

xtremeIX,

what mix were you running on your aquamist system? 50/50 mix or 100% meth? nice power!

xtremeIX

08-26-2008, 03:06 PM

beavis4g63t

08-26-2008, 04:27 PM

I'm running 50/50 mix on my aquamist system. I am pleased with the power output but I was hoping for 400whp or higher with the FP green and water/meth. Have any ideas how to squeeze another 15 horsepower out of my car...LOL??

I did not see if you have an upgraded intercooler and upper intercooler pipe?

CASH$ MONEY

08-26-2008, 05:03 PM

I'm running 50/50 mix on my aquamist system. I am pleased with the power output but I was hoping for 400whp or higher with the FP green and water/meth. Have any ideas how to squeeze another 15 horsepower out of my car...LOL??

while back i was running the same set-up as you, with short-route piping and 100 % meth, and also running less aggressive cams as your gsc's,,,

my car put down 415whp 370 tq by Alfred @ TT

Terenus

08-26-2008, 06:23 PM

Keep it clean, you know better Smoggy.

LiquidLife

08-26-2008, 07:11 PM

It looks like u have full ic piping right?Â* Anyway I was thinking it's because of ur IC and ur not running 100 percent meth, that's the only thing I can think of?Â* It was pretty hot out, what kind of fuel did u pump in there?

1WkdEvo

08-26-2008, 07:25 PM

Why the choice against 100% meth???

LiquidLife

08-26-2008, 07:40 PM

water has no energy output

LiquidLife

08-26-2008, 07:41 PM

oh I just realized ur actual question

xtremeIX

08-26-2008, 08:25 PM

The temperature in the dyno bay was 102 degrees which might have effected the horsepower figures a little bit. I'm thinking if I run two nozzles and switch to 75/25 mix maybe I could achieve 400whp or a little over.

Alfred@TTech

08-27-2008, 08:13 AM

The temperature in the dyno bay was 102 degrees which might have effected the horsepower figures a little bit.Â* I'm thinking if I run two nozzles and switch to 75/25 mix maybe I could achieve 400whp or a little over.

A intercooler upgrade is a must as beavis pointed out above.Â* We have run into this before with another members EVO when the green first came out.Â* You should consider this before having the re-tune done.

Alfred

LiquidLife

08-27-2008, 08:45 AM

yey now u have a reason to get an AMS ic

LiquidLife

08-27-2008, 02:52 PM

xtremeIX

08-27-2008, 03:36 PM

I read up on meth injection on snow forums and snow says that 50/50 is best for safety and the best combination of det supress and intake cooling.... I am not quite grasping as to exactly why water works well, I would like to know more, down to what happens chemically, in detail. This is very interesting.

From what I've read I think water is the cooling factor and meth raises the octane level. When running a 50/50 mix you raise your octane and dissipate heat. When running 100% meth you get a much higher octane but the cooling is less effective because of the absence of water. However, meth being a liquid I would think still dissipates heat. I'm mainly running a 50/50 mix because it's safer (get rear ended the tank won't explode and it cuts down on fumes), and saves a little bit of money because half of it's water. I know this doesn't answer your question but this is what I know of the subject; anybody else care to elaborate?

1WkdEvo

08-27-2008, 03:44 PM

When I ran meth, it was a good thing I was running 100% meth because a detailer used water in my engine bay and shorted out the controller and failsafe. The controller then started pumping meth into the UICP without any boost and pumped about 1.5 gallons worth in. If it had been water, the engine would have been fried, but since it was meth, no problem at all

ASIXMRSE

08-27-2008, 04:04 PM

holy crap bro... so whatd you do?? i woulda been furious... but then i guess thats part of getting a detail.... minus the shorted out meth controller. haha

LiquidLife

08-27-2008, 04:12 PM

Definitely, plus I was under the impression that meth provided all the det suppression and cooling you would want, I'm trying to understand the statement below specifically, from the snow forum.

Q: So the only reason Snow does not recommend 100% methanol is just because of safety?
A: Well safety is a good reason, but at 100% methanol you are basically running a dual fuel engine. There are many benefits to mixing water with methanol besides safety. Injected in the right quantity water increases the detonation resistance of the air fuel charge (or octane rating if you want) and has a steam effect on the power stroke of the engine cycle leading to more torque. (Same principle that Steam engines were designed around)

Okay, so I think I understand that the atomized water suppresses premature detonation, okay fine, but doesn't water suppress detonation entirely across the board?

I believe I also understand that the atomized water being vaporized creating pressure making more torque, but I just don't understand why you would want to suppress the det entirely, while Methanol cools the intake temp and acts as a high octane, but also contains high amounts of energy, while water contains no energy, that is unless you have a flux capacitor.

Does the steam effect negate the fact that water doesn't contain energy?

Am I understanding all this correctly?

1WkdEvo

08-27-2008, 06:54 PM

holy crap bro... so whatd you do?? i woulda been furious... but then i guess thats part of getting a detail.... minus the shorted out meth controller. haha

I had the engine flushed three times with oil and its perfect as can be. If it had been water, KABOOM!!!

LiquidLife

08-28-2008, 08:41 AM

anyone?

mosth8d

08-29-2008, 06:44 AM

anyone?

if im following the thread correctly, water would use heat to create steam therefore you would have less usable heat after combustion.

i would imagine its a small amount and could be considered negligable. the increase in torque doesnt make sense to me either, considering the law of conservation of energy says work in=work out. if usable energy is being wasted to make steam (which i would imagine is a very small amount) and steam is about 1000 times more compressable than liquid water, where is the torque being generated? now you have less usable energy after combustion and the miniscule amount of gas (steam) is being compressed (which takes work to do further reducing usable energy after combustion albeit a small amount)...maybe i'm missing something key or i'm overthinking this, i just dont understand snow's claim on the steam engine effect.

LiquidLife

08-29-2008, 08:53 AM

Finally, someone who's speaking my language. Yes, the energy taken to create steam is suppressing det across the board, which only takes away power, or should I say transfered into steam?

No I don't think you are over thinking, most people don't care and don't think enough. No one wants to reply, they are afraid to ruin their reputation as knowing everything? I don't know....

1WkdEvo

08-29-2008, 01:06 PM

I don't know either, but am enjoying the dialogue. I read all the Evom threads about this to so I can like learn and stuff

cky_bam_marg

08-29-2008, 03:08 PM

could this whole steaming/water effect be used to raise the compression ratio at TDC on the power stroke?

this is kinda how i would imagine this whole thing working

1. intake stroke
2. gas/meth/water all thrown into the engine
3. compression
4. at compression the water which hasnt been vaporized yet because we havent hit spark yet is still water, which being a harder element to compress raises ur compression ration from our stock 8:1 *i think, but could be wrong* to anything above that.
5. spark!!!!!
6. burn gas/meth
7. Power stroke -heat from combustion steams/vaporizes the water, which then cools ur temps and a mixture of the higher octane and water cooling properties and the higher compression u got from the water makes for a higher energy release form ur power stroke.
8. Exhaust stroke- the burned off remnints of ur gas/meth and vaporized/steamed water exits ur cylinder safely!

so how far off am i to the real answer? :-D

LiquidLife

08-29-2008, 05:04 PM

yer outline helps paint a picture, nice! So then by what ur saying the steam effect DOES in fact, or at least for the most part negate the fact of waters lack of caloric energy.

mosth8d

08-30-2008, 06:19 AM

i disagree that it would be noticeable torque. what volume of water are we injecting? i would think it would have to be a negligable amount. i dont know much about 4 stroke engine cycles or how to calculate CR but do the math and assume a resaonable amount of water injected. that would provide some indication if the cycle is correct.

after looking at the cycle, i think the atomized water would flash to steam when it enters the cylinder due to residual temps. this flash to steam would quench the cylinder temps pre-ignition due to waters high latent heat of vaporization.

like i said i dunno about it...im just throwing thoughts out there.

LiquidLife

08-30-2008, 07:34 AM

U bring up a good point, u think there is enough time to vaporize the water before det?

mosth8d

08-30-2008, 11:02 PM

yes, when the water is atomized it effectively increases the surface area for heat transfer to occur, therefore increasing the amount of heat that can be transfered for a given time. plus i would imagine its a small enough volume and the latent cylinder temps are pretty high considering exhaust tempsand what not.

its a reasonable idea.

one again...the disclaimer...i am not an expert on engines and stuff...i specialize in a completely different field.

EVOMANIAC

08-30-2008, 11:40 PM

Water has a greater cooling effect than meth. The water when turned to steam occupies over 100x the amount of space the same volume of water does. This could increase the torque, how ever with the decreased cylinder temps from water you can run more advanced timing, and higher boost, thus increasing torque.
Water is used simply as a cooling medium. Running 3% water to fuel at a 12.5afr has the same cooling effect as running 10.0 afr at the same timing and boost levels. Water simply cools better than alky.
Alky adds octane to the combustion process and cools, but not as good as water. Alky does not have as good antidetonation properties as water does. Some boosted cars with water injection only, no alky run leaner than running on c16 race gas.
The amount of water injected is not a straight number it has to be tested by trial and error basically. The same as tuning on just gas. You have 4 variables to tune with when using water injection, water amnt, boost, AFR, and timing. Properly tuning water injection is very time consuming. Look at the WRC cars that only make around 300hp, but over 450tq using water inj only.