Meth Kit Questions, People with Kits Reply Please

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Hey Fellow Evo Lovers, here is the deal.Â* My Car is pretty much maxed out with the stock turbo, and running 91 piss gass.Â* My next bang for the buck mod was going to be a Meth kit.Â* I wont get into brands and what not, but what I am curious about is people here that are currently running a meth kit on their car how do you like it?Â* Is it good to have on a DD car?Â* Reliabilty?Â* Anything you can say that are Pro's of the kit, Cons of the kit, ect.Â* I am seriously considering it but want to make sure I would be happy with it.Â* What are your stories?Â* Good and Bad.Â* Any special maintenence required?Â* Spark Plug changed more? oil changed more? ect.Â* Just trying to get as much info on this before I choose.Â* Thanks guys and gals.


"If you cant stand behind our troops......then go stand in front of them...."

[xxblazexx]

i would like to know about a meth kit also

[BenJ]

Hey Jeff,

I can give you some information on meth kits that I've gathered from personal experiences. First, as far as kits go, get either the Perrin or Aquamist...I wish I had. Not saying that the other kits aren't good, because they are, but the Aquamist and Perrin kits use superior design that is not only easier to tune, but also install...partly due to better instructions. Keep in mind that the Perrin kit uses Aquamist architecture in its electronics(brain/ECU). I used the coolingmist kit first and while I will say that it was a PITA to install, I will counter that by saying that coolingmist's customer service was exceptional, so there's your trade-off on that. Once installed the kit worked great. The reason that I say go with either Perrin or Aquamist is based off of your price range. If you want to spend ~$500, get the Perrin PW-2 and if you want to spend ~$900 get the aquamist HFS-6. The major difference between the two is the failsafe. The Perrin PW-2 kit does not come with a failsafe, while the HFS-6 does. Here's my breakdown on Failsafes, they're a PITA. I went through 3 different types of failsafes on my coolingmist kit and while they serve an important duty on paper, in acuality they are a pain to deal with. I ran a fail safe for boost, AFR, and one other that I can't remember at the moment, but when tripped, they would set the boost to wastegate pressure. Sounds great right? After all, no one wants a blown motor. Here's the problem, most any fluctuation in your AFR or boost will send your boost to wastegate pressure, even there's nothing really wrong with your system. Example: Say that you are tuned to 12 AFR and one day for whatever reason your car starts to run at 11.7 or 12.3, not the biggest deal ever but now whenever you try and go into boost your going to hit wastegate pressure only. My solution to this is to purchase a good quality AFR gauge like a zeitronix and use that to watch your engines vital signs instead of running failsafes built into the meth kit, that's what I'm doing. There are a lot of people that feel that failsafes are of the upmost importance and to a certain exten they are, however they are not the best solution to maintaining a safe sytem, nor are they in my eyes, honestly needed. My next system is more then likely going to be a PW-2 system with a full zeitronix kit. The overall cost will be about the same to the Aquamist HFS-6 kit when you factor in the Zeitronix kit at around $500. Also, if for whatever reason I decide to go with a failsafe in the future, the PW-2 kit is compatible with the Aquamist failsafes so I'm covered there.

As far as things that you will need to add to realize the full potential of the meth kit I would highly recommend a sparkplug amplifier of some sort. You can still use the factory plugs, but I ran into problems with occasional missing when running 30+ psi. The solution is either get some of the Okada direct replacement coils for ~$400 or get something like the sparktech non-cdi ignition set-up for ~$675. This will also net you some more power so win-win.
I would also plan on buying an additional couple feet of shielded copper wiring if you will be doing a trunk mount kit as well as possibly upgrading to stainless lines v. the standard nylon or whatever material the kits come with is.
I hope that helps you out some Jeff. Shoot me a PM and perhaps we can do an install day down a James new shop.

-Ben

[flblkevo9]

Do it you'll love it. I have one for sale.

[hiphopfeinds]

I love my meth its like sex I've been thru 20 gallons in 6 months

[xxblazexx]

dammmm i must look into this but must concentrate on turbo and intercooler

[obstacle1]

Great info Ben. Thanks.

[HB Speed]

We have installed many Meth/water injection kits! We usually highly recommend the aquamist kits! O0
Just did a couple installs of the hsf6 which is the newest version.
gains are substantial

[sxe_davexxx]

We have installed many Meth/water injection kits! We usually highly recommend the aquamist kits! O0
Just did a couple installs of the hsf6 which is the newest version.
gains are substantial


Post graphs of such gains, I'm interested in the aqumist kit!

[Alfred@TTech]

We have installed many Meth/water injection kits! We usually highly recommend the aquamist kits! O0
Just did a couple installs of the hsf6 which is the newest version.
gains are substantial

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*
Post graphs of such gains, I'm interested in the aqumist kit!


This is a good example.

http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=37&topic=72137.0

Alfred

[Dead_Pirate]

I'm also seconds away from picking up a meth kit... I heard the AEM one is really good...as long as the kit has lots of fail safe then it's all good!

[sxe_davexxx]

We have installed many Meth/water injection kits! We usually highly recommend the aquamist kits! O0
Just did a couple installs of the hsf6 which is the newest version.
gains are substantial

Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*
Post graphs of such gains, I'm interested in the aqumist kit!


This is a good example.

http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=37&topic=72137.0

Alfred

Thanks for the info

+45whp on a lightly modded evo. Great gains, and it sounds super safe too O0

[EvoJoe]

BenJ pretty much explained it all. I've been a loyal Aquamist owner for many years. I had my Aquamist kit on my Talon and then later used the same kit on my Evo. That shows you how reliable they can be. They also were the ones who pretty much invented the fail safe for water/alcohol injection systems. You'll also find out that all fail safes are not the same. Go to the Aquamist forums and read up all you can. Also go to Evom and search for threads by Abner aka "slowcar", he also demonstrates why Aquamist is the best.Â* The owner/designer of Aquamist, Richard Lamb is so cool to work with if you get in a bind. He'll even call you from England where he is located to help you out. The Aquamist kits are more expensive than the other kits, but the reliability and quality is worth every penny. Click on my sig below. It shows some of my most recent results after I was tuned with my
Aquamist.

[Alfred@TTech]

I'm also seconds away from picking up a meth kit... I heard the AEM one is really good...as long as the kit has lots of fail safe then it's all good!


Ryan,

The AEM kit actually has ZERO true failsafes that are effective and geared towards protecting your engine in the event of a injection failure.Â* If you do decide to go that route instead of the Aquamist kit, we have already developed a way to retrofit the failsafe portion of the Aquamist kit to the AEM (we have developed retrofits for all current kits on market thats how good the Aquamist failsafe protection is).Â* This way you have all the protection a Aquamist kit affords you while using your AEM system.

Alfred

[335eater]

i run the aquamist kit and its the shit :D

[Dead_Pirate]

I'm also seconds away from picking up a meth kit... I heard the AEM one is really good...as long as the kit has lots of fail safe then it's all good!


Ryan,

The AEM kit actually has ZERO true failsafes that are effective and geared towards protecting your engine in the event of a injection failure.Â* If you do decide to go that route instead of the Aquamist kit, we have already developed a way to retrofit the failsafe portion of the Aquamist kit to the AEM (we have developed retrofits for all current kits on market thats how good the Aquamist failsafe protection is).Â* This way you have all the protection a Aquamist kit affords you while using your AEM system.

Alfred


I wasn't going to make a for sure decision on AEM untill I asked you of course! Haha.... Whatever Alfred says is what we shall do! So if you say the Aquamist kit then the Aquamist kit it is! O0

If you could Alfred, can you pm separate prices of the Aquamist kit, Install, and a Retune!

Thanks! Btw I will get back to you on the specs for my suspension! O0

[Dead_Pirate]

i run the aquamist kit and its the shit :D


Aren't you running that on your 30r? I thought you were selling that set up?

What power did you put down on 91 & meth?

You should cruise by my work and give me a ride! Haha

[335eater]

i was but i got out of the ref ticket without taking anything off and instead of swapping turbos and going through all that again i think im gonna build a motor. on 91 with meth i made 449/379

[dj_subculture]

Where do you guys get your Meth from?

[335eater]

there are multiple places, any vendor that tunes cars will have it and if they dont have it they can get it.. i just found out a company i deal with through work can get it to me for the half the price that ive been paying so im going that route from now on

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

couple of things, 1, thanks everyone for your input, 2, anyone have the website for aquamist so I can check it out online? and 3 what % are you guys running? 49/51? Some tune on 100% meth. Kinda scary though doing that in my book, Meth is very volitile. But makes more power no doubt. I was considering the 49/51 which is Boost Juice. Thanks all. :)

[335eater]

50/50 mix is a waste, ive been running 100% since i got the kit

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Just curious to how 100% meth would be on the motor over time? Meth is very corrosive. Curious how it would be in lets say 2-3 yrs? No one would know I guess unless you tore your motor apart. haha. I would think that it would cause some kind of issue interally in time. Maybe I am wrong? Anyone have had their head taken off to check?

[EvoJoe]

couple of things, 1, thanks everyone for your input, 2, anyone have the website for aquamist so I can check it out online?Â* and 3 what % are you guys running?Â* 49/51?Â* Some tune on 100% meth.Â* Kinda scary though doing that in my book, Meth is very volitile.Â* But makes more power no doubt.Â* I was considering the 49/51 which is Boost Juice.Â* Thanks all. :)


Here's the Aquamist's website: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/. Read up as much as you can on their forums. You might have to join in order to get to the best threads. You'll find out that for the rest of the world, a 50/50 water/methanol mix is the most popular. You just have to tune for it to get the best results.

[335eater]

Just curious to how 100% meth would be on the motor over time? Meth is very corrosive. Curious how it would be in lets say 2-3 yrs? No one would know I guess unless you tore your motor apart. haha. I would think that it would cause some kind of issue interally in time. Maybe I am wrong? Anyone have had their head taken off to check?

ive also heard e85 is corrosive and when i saw a picture of the internals after a tear down they looked very clean, i would assume that meth might be the same. either way i dont intend and having this same set up for 2-3 years, idt my car can take 26psi for that amount of time

[BenJ]

Meth is corrosive...the reason that the pictures of the internals that you saw were clean was more than likely due to the water in a particular meth/water set-up. When spraying water into the combustion chamber, it acts like a steam cleaner and makes it sparkle.

[EvoJoe]

Just curious to how 100% meth would be on the motor over time?Â* Meth is very corrosive.Â* Curious how it would be in lets say 2-3 yrs?Â* No one would know I guess unless you tore your motor apart.Â* haha.Â* I would think that it would cause some kind of issue interally in time.Â* Maybe I am wrong?Â* Anyone have had their head taken off to check?

ive also heard e85 is corrosive and when i saw a picture of the internals after a tear down they looked very clean, i would assume that meth might be the same. either way i dont intend and having this same set up for 2-3 years, idt my car can take 26psi for that amount of time


I think the picture you saw was the same one I saw over on Evom. I believe it was Bryan from GST who had pulled his head off to replace a head gasket. In that case you have to understand that the E-85 fuel is being sprayed out from just the injectors into the combustion chambers. Those piston tops were very clean due to the solvent like nature of E-85. E-85 also plugged up his fuel filter due to the "thorough cleaning" the E-85 did to his gas tank. He troubleshot that after he started to get some lean AFR's. When you start injecting pure methanol in an injection system through your uicp, its corrosive nature will attack the pipe, throttle body, and the aluminum intake manifold. Also you have to inject more methanol into the engine to get the job done compared to a 50/50 mix or just plain water. I remember seeing some pictures of some guy on Evom that was showing evidence of bore wash due to running pure methanol injection. In the end you mentioned that you'll probably not be running your injection system for more than a couple of years, so that's cool. I just find that a 50/50 mix is much safer to run on my Evo and much safer to store in my garage. Also it definitely kept those piston tops and valves free from carbon build up (noticed that when I pulled the head off of my Talon after running water/alcohol injection for several years).

[lemmonhead]

labonte has a great kit, failsafe is awesome, you can set the low flow set point were if flow gets lower than that the setpoint it makes boost drop to wastegate. Also, if power is disconnected it also drops boost.
its a lot cheaper than aquamist. oh and the controller is 3D control! not just boost but MAF also, so very precise in the meth flow.

[HMatt]

huh, never heard of them.... http://www.labontemotorsports.com/store/index.php


Pretty interesting stuff....

[EvoJoe]

I had a chance to experience the effectiveness of my Aquamist failsafe yesterday. I recently had work done on my Evo and when I started going into boost my car was only showing 20 psi on my boost gauge. I am tuned for a 26-27 psi spike and about 24 psi to redline when my water/alcohol is injecting. When I started to troubleshoot, I popped my hood and saw that I had some liquid sprayed around the compartment. Apparently, the tech that worked on my car forgot to re-attach my water/alcohol line back to my uicp. My failsafe kicked in and switched my ECU to my 91 octane only map immediately. This is when you want everything working perfectly so it will save your ass from a screwed up motor.Â* Â*

[u189961]

Nice thread and great information here. I too have been looking at methanol injection for a while now so I can safely up the boost even more. I've been looking at the aquamist as I keep reading great feedback from them. Their fail safe feature sounds great too.

[RRE_Shop]

My .02 coming from a different platform but work with evos all day.
The biggest factor in Meth systems is User and install quality.

My biggest gripe about the "fail safes" that all the companies rant and rave about. It only cuts boost.

Depending on how much Jesus Juice you are spraying, and how aggressive the tune is, no amount of "low boost" will save you given you don't know whats happening and you keep pushing it (user error).

In my car, on pump gas, I can only run 9* of timing, at a 11:1 AFR 100% pump gas on 20psi. And that is on the brink of knock.
On meth, I'm pushing 28psi (max the little EVO3 16G will do) 18* of timing and 11.3:1 AFR. Pulling 40% out of my fuel maps to account for the meth. This is running a 50/50 mix in a 250psi pump and D12 nozzle.

Now lets run to the scenario of the system failing under full boost at 6500RPM.
18* of timing + 28psi -40% fuel. AFR will be scary lean, and timing way above what only 91piss can do, and boost, beyond what 91 piss can handle.

Say your "fail safe" kicks in and cuts boost to wategate pressure.
18* of timing, still dumb lean, and 13ish psi of boost. Still not a good cocktail. Damage will happen, you will cry.

In the end, if you keep a good eye on the system, check the fittings from time to time. Clean the nozzle from time to time. Just a good check once a month or so. The other part, installing it with half a brain. Think it all through. Solder all electrical connections. Find solid grounds for everything. No jenky crap. Set it up safe so it wont fail and never need a fail safe.

Yes I run the Vtak Sauce, and I love it. Its like running race gas everyday for 3.50/gal and 1 gallon mixed with water makes 2 gallons. And 2 Gallons last me about 2 weeks or normal everyday driving, and I commute 40 miles a day.

How do I run my "fail safe"? I've set up my whole system around my broke back 2G DSM POS with a little circuit diagram I drew up in eagle 5.0 that involves 3 LEDs for level warning, arm, and spray. The only fail safe I run currently is a knock map switch. The whole system is controlled by my ECU. At 2.1 (15~16psi) Load the ecu triggers the meth to spray. At 2.2 load the ECU switches maps automaticly to the meth fuel and timing maps and activates the safety parameters. If the ecu detects over 2* of knock, it will revert back to the 91 only maps while continuing to spray the meth. I still need to add a dual stage controller which will switch boost down to 20psi, but this currently works fine. Only failure I can fore see is running out of meth. Which will cause knock, ecu will cut maps to 91, but 28psi is a but much out of the puny turbo and its HOT. But then again, that's what the knock light is for, and the level warning. Fail to yeild to those, the user needs a failed, not the meth system.

This all wasn't a kit, bought the pump (everyone uses shurflo, no matter who's kit it is) and bought the nozzle from Devils Own, their nozzle seems to be the best at atomizing the Sauce. Used the stock washer bottle, hid the pump and ran all lines inconspicuously, andÂ* mounted the nozzle away from prying eyes. Tuned it and rip Vtack Sauce all day.

Sam C. @RRE

[HMatt]

^I thought the failsafes kicked the ecu back to the 91 map? (if you are running map switching)

[RRE_Shop]

Not all do. The Cooling Mist Smart Injection system has an output for boost cut (really you can use the boost cut output for map switching, but then that again INSTALL INSTALL INSTALL). But all the extra sensors and crap just makes it more complicated than it needs to be. In the end, the enemy is Knock. If any part of the system fails, pump dies, line blows off, clog, triggering system or just downright boost spike or blow off your fpr line, you get knock, too much kills motors. Having a fail safe based off of knock works (unless you get phantom knock, but that sucks)
I originally drew the circuit with for provisions to check line pressure, level, and flow also. To make sure pressure didn't drop below a safe level (line blows off) or flow (clog) but deemed them overkill and waste of money. ECU controlling the meth cant go wrong, if your ecu fails, you have other problems now and your car wont run to blow up.

[HMatt]

ok now... you say ECU... I am assuming you have an EMS of some kind. What are you using?

[RRE_Shop]

Not a Standalone, but yes the car runs and has a System to Manage the Engine ;). Its an old school thing that some of the evo8 guys used to use back when ecuFlash wasn't available, DSMLink. Not really standalone, and by no means piggy back, kind of in that no mans land zone of in between.

[HMatt]

Dude... look at the list of cars i have above the pic on the left

Yeah... I know what DSM Link is! lol I was actually going to use it until I just said fuck it and bought an evo!

So have you done any experimenting with doing it on a stock evo ecu?

[RRE_Shop]

Currently no. But I've ported the evo8ecu over to work in one of my buddies 2G, whenever he decides to go meth I'll look into it. Which will be whenever he gets a job :grin:. I keep talking smack about how he cant keep up to a 16G with his 60-1. He still doesn't know I'm spraying VTEC juice, when he gets a job I'll let him know, he'll be on the bandwagon.

LinkV3 EGR, FPR, and Boost solenoids have programmable functions outside of the stock. You can use its output for anything really. I currently use the FPR out to trigger the meth. I have the conditions set to enable when:
3500 < RPM < 9000
0% < TPS < 10%
0* < Knock < 20*
5 < MPH < 315
2.1 < LoadFactor < 6.0

Using the EGR output to trigger the Map switch to 91 if more than 2* of timing is pulled.

Fairly simple. I'll try to take a look at the Evo Ecu controls to see if he comes out to the meet tonight and brings his laptop.

[HMatt]

^nice. I would offer mine for a guinea pig, but I have to spend money on fixing my bumper first, so it won't be for another few months before I start looking for a meth kit or for parts to build one. lol

I am guessing you work at RRE? lol, I've been up there a time or two. Gotta go back up there soon to give Mike the beadroller back and to bring my bumper to James for him to paint.

[RRE_Shop]

yes I do. You're the guy that swung by to puck up that ancient bead roller, it was rusting and covered in cobb webs right?

Spoke with my buddy last night, seems feasible on the E8 ecu, his laptop was dead so no chance to look into it. I'll try though whenever I feel like it and the opportunity presents itself.

[HMatt]

^Yep... that was me! I take it you guys don't use it very much? lol

Yeah, I made some aluminum undertrays and wanted them to be nice and stiff, so I put some beads down the middle. Came out real nice and doesn't flex at all.

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, keep us posted on how it goes and when I get some cash for a meth kit, you will be the first to know! haha!

[RRE_Shop]

I'll give him the word to have his laptop charged tonight so I can look into it at the meet. Will post updates tomorrow.

[mrevolution]

i was looking at some graphs so pretty much ur gaining a good 100hp from the meth kit??

and if a car is stock can u jus install the meth and tune it? or u need supporting parts?

[HMatt]

Depends... you will probably need a clutch if you are still on the stocker.

You can get damn near the same effect from running e85 and for a little cheaper. But if it's not available in your area, dual mapping with a 91 map and 91 + meth map is a more viable option.

I plan on latching on to the whole meth thing because I can get restationed to the east coast, and if that's the case, e85 and 90% of the support for evos aren't anywhere near the place. BUT you can always order meth from snow performance!

[HMatt]

Hey man... the tephra mod v7 came out and it has the knock-cout failsafe built into it, so that's an option for a failsafe for meth... just thought I would let you know for when your buddy goes with the meth for his DSM with the 8 ecu in it.

I would be trying it out on mine, but appearently my particular rom is buggy as hell...

[Mike W]

Pure methanol can get upwards of 100 hp gain over 91 octane. With meth/water it is more in the 50-60 hp range (all depending on what turbo).

Pure Meth tends to eat meth kit pumps faster faster and a little higher chance of everyone in the car dieing a horrible firey death in a big accident. Ideally you would dilute it to the point where you cant catch it on fire.

Mike W

[2muchboost]

Ive had my brand new Perrin PW-1 meth kit sitting right in front of me for a little over a year..
Cant make up my mind if i want to run it or not! lol
Dont know if i want to risk it??,,
I think im just going to sell it,,

[HMatt]

^how much?

[2muchboost]

^^^
LOL..
Im not sure..
Ill pm you!