lets see your 91octane timing maps

[amaev05]

post here for tuning help.
I have pulled some good info off the thread on evom but its mostly 93octane or e85,
so what i would like to do is start this new thread so us self tuner guys here in Cali can compare apples to apples when starting the tuning adventure.so what I'm really interested in is what people are able to get away with on the camel pi$$ 91octane. so post the cell graph and also the 3dmap and every one can chime in with help full ideas, facts and opinions.
also include your fuel maps if you feel, just for reference

DO NOT POST VENDOR MAPS. of courseÂ* :buck2:

so lets raise the bar a little over here on socalevo and get some more technical threads goingÂ* O0

[amaev05]

OK so i will start with my weak a$$ map. and the reason i started this thread, see i had my engine built about a year ago and ever since i did the break in and started tuning it i was hopelessly trying to battle what i now know was phantom knock, while trying to get rid of the knock i was making the situation worse be continually lowering timing only to make it worse and worse. well turned out I just was not running enough timing and that was causing knock and the built motor with a knife edged crank was not helping. so i raised the knock thresh hold and bumped up the timing on the spool area and bingo no more false knock no more pulling timing to -4 and power is starting to feel good. but i know there is a little more room in it because I'm sure i should be able to pull some more power out of my set up.

[amaev05]

i will post up vd Graph results as soon as i figure out what is going on with my pos laptop

[amaev05]

Is any one able to run much more timing than this? If so where should I try bumping it up?

[frankd14321]

Looks really similar to my map on 91 but i just have a stock motor with bolt ons..

[amaev05]

Post em up!

[HMatt]

^How much boost are you running? I'm running more timing but I'm only boosting 21-22 psi.

[amaev05]

Running 25-22psi @8000rpm

[amaev05]

91 octane

[amaev05]

e85..Â* :smitten:Â* time for a new thread
smoothing is only 1

[frankd14321]

^^^^ ya ya ya... but for the rest of us out in the other parts of CA where you can't get e85 this is helpful lol...

[amaev05]

well then! some one post a fukking map! dont be skerdid!

[amaev05]

yea i know there could be more power on the 91 map but my motor just hates the shit!

[Nito619]

Not on an EVO but same shit. 91 octane on a 4G63 is just a big fail.

OMFG SOCAL EVO sucks it timed out and lost all of the page I had typed.
cliffs:
-attempted to tune today on 91
-pulled 1 degree from the factory after 5k rpm and one more after 6k
-anything over 23 psi would knock more and more
-11* timing max otherwise it would begin to knock
-having tuned on e85 before I gave up so just focused the tune on getting rid of detonation than power with 91 tune LOL
-91 is so shitty it should cost $1 a gallon

[RALLInspired]

^ what's your load look like throughout the power band? that sure does seem like an awful lot of timing....

Rick

[Nito619]

Load? What value and what form of value would I be looking for to answer your question?

The table is max timing, load is on the left side, rpm at the top.
The highlighted region is the portion of the map that was mostly being used going through 2nd and 3rd gear.
Those values do not transfer directly over to timing advanced values just an overall proportion to the timing retard and advance the ecu uses. Pretty sure you know this already.

I just realized something really wrong, my fuel trims, I was messing with my maf today and took out the honey combs so the maf compensation table was modified for a hacked maf but not correctly how it should of. Will be putting those suckers back in and using the MAF simulation above 2000 hz to be sure it won't be overrun after calibrating it ugh, that extra unessesary work knowing this would happen. fail performance

[Reese Tuning]

I would have to say that is a horrible ignition map for a 4g. I would consider getting tuning advice from a professional.

James

[Nito619]

Load factor is around 1.8 - 2.2 under WOT 2nd and 3rd gear, the highlighted/darkened area is what the ecu lingers around under "max load" idk if this term is even used with professionals.

Ignition map is practically the factory map, 2g dsm factory maps are more aggressive than evo8/9 maps pretty sure you know this
http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/v3configs?s=map

I would start off with the Evo8 base timing map but I seriously do not want to tune on 91 anymore, I just came in here to post and say 91 belongs in its unprocessed form underground and people should not claim earth's resources as their property so they can benefit financially in a monopolistic fashion.

Anyways, can you Rick and Reese post your personal 91 timing maps. After all this is what this thread is about.

[Reese Tuning]

Every 91 timing map will be different depending on how efficient the engine is etc. My maps are pretty basic, conservative and not much to learn from. I do think the map you posted is aggressive for 91 octane here in CA.

James

[Nito619]

Pretty sure this is the response the op was looking for. 91 Octane just isn't timing advanced friendly and at given air temp and pressure it will cause detonation. "Conservative timing" is what I get from all the prominent 4g63 tuning shops in the u.s.

[amaev05]

;)

[Reese Tuning]

Those do not look any better. The fuel map looks terrible as well.

James

[amaev05]

I was refering to the maps he got of the intardnet, is that what you ment James?

[Reese Tuning]

All maps he posted!

James

[Nito619]

To be honest no maps would be worth looking at without some WOT logging. They are gone Donkey Kong

[Reese Tuning]

Agree with you on that.

James

[amaev05]

its ok to post your maps even if they suck, so that you can get some help with them, that is why i created this thread. although most on here don't have a translation of the load values used in that program you posted with, but re post it with a better log, im curious.

[Nito619]

Y

[amaev05]

Wtf!? Y ask y?

[TheBoz]

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,28625.0.html

That thred had my 91oct map along with log file. It also has my pump+meth setup. I am not a huge fan of 91oct, however pump+meth is pretty win. E85 is great if you dont drive your car very often, or if the price of 91oct is high, then it is win. But if the cost of 91 is low I think it is better to run 91 with meth.

[amaev05]

This long and no one has posted yet??

[Reese Tuning]

I will post a calibration for you. Give me a sec.

James

[Reese Tuning]

Use at your own risk please. I would consider this an aggressive map :)

Enjoy!!

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/Reese_Tuning/JK.png

Yours truly,

James

[redevo9sy]

hahahah that shit is funny.

[Reese Tuning]

Knock knock. Who's there? JK map!

James

[Dubs46]

Hahahaha rofl @ the Jk map

[Reese Tuning]

So what do you all think? JK map does wonders.

James

[ReeseTuned]

This map is guaranteed to make 600 hp and make you run 9's lololol That shit is so funny. There you go everyone. You just got tuned by Reese.

Chris

[amaev05]

Omg James you're a fucking genius, you have cracked the da Vince code of tuning!! Every one should run this map right now! Thank you for your contribution to the forum. But what are you going to do now that the jk map is out there. Your going to go out of business.. :buck2:

[Dubs46]

........

[Reese Tuning]

If you would like to see a 91 map of mine feel free to pm me. I will show you something. Truthfully as most know, I tune a bit more conservative than most on 91. I hate 91 :) So.... on the other hand race fuel and ethanol I can make up for it.

James

[amaev05]

No do not post your maps unless you are looking for some help with them or simply want to share your results with the world. I would not expect any pro tuners to share there work$, Even though just beacuse you can see a painting dosent mean you can tell how the artist got to that finished product or even corectly reproduce it.

[Mike W]

The only thing that would help a junior tooner get their 91 ignition map going good like a pro would be to post up logs with a mod list. Every car passes through a different load path. Looking at a map means means nothing.

Mike W

[amaev05]

Thanks mike. Yea if it is not yet clear to everyone reading this, also include all info from your car and include a zip file of some pulls.

[RobDizzle]

Knock knock. Who's there? JK map!

James

[amaev05]

Jk map who?........

[amaev05]

so i guess no one in so cal self tunes...

[MarcoEvo9]

im going to be self tunning soon. Ill post up what i got later

[amaev05]

well get to it! haha,
lmk if you need any help. i got my cable and was tuning only 3 months after buying my evo in 06 but have only tuned my car, so im interested to see how other cars act. i would relly love to see some evo x maps, since i am ordering my 2.0 cable soon for my 2010 se
i will also start an e85 thread soon since im not running my 8 on 91 anymore,

[EvoBaja]

I'm self tuning my rail. With assistance. With a totally different intake and exhaust and running it at low boost combined with the fact that I would like to run it on 89 to save on cash. Though this thread is about 91 I just wanted to put in my .02 saying I'm in so cal and will be self tuning.

[amaev05]

most recent version

[amaev05]

use this for tuning help.

[DJAfterShok]

http://www.midwestevos.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1484&d=1323382787

[amaev05]

broken

[oldevodude]

Some of us run 26 or even 28 PSI on 91 ;) In interest to those that make money tooning I won't share my maps as they suck anyway :2funny:. like others have said you need to post actual load cells YOUR car hits during a run to have any value. There are huge threads on EvoM with a whole bunch of maps; but I can honestly say if you blindly apply a bunch of numbers off a posted map you could be in for trouble.
I will say that conservatism is key and in the past I have been told that i leave a lot of power on the table because of it. In defense to that I have run e85 at 30psi or more for over 20k miles and still running stock block and studs.
When you see what cells your car hits through a run you can adjust incrementally and try to remember that if jumps in timing along the way are too great that will cause knock in and of itself.
Boost profile is super important in determining timing so once again you need to consider that as well. If you change boost timing map needs to be completely redone Period.
No one should attempt self tuning IMO wihtout a wideband to monitor o2 as too rich or too lean and Boom
PS When in doubt see a tooner at least for a baseline and fine tune from there
Good Luck and hope no one blows up due to bad tune

It has been a while so figured I'd try to contribute and stay politically correct (hopefully)

[amaev05]

how do you consider that a contribution?



Some of us run 26 or even 28 PSI on 91 ;) In interest to those that make money tooning I won't share my maps as they suck anyway :2funny:. like others have said you need to post actual load cells YOUR car hits during a run to have any value. There are huge threads on EvoM with a whole bunch of maps; but I can honestly say if you blindly apply a bunch of numbers off a posted map you could be in for trouble.
I will say that conservatism is key and in the past I have been told that i leave a lot of power on the table because of it. In defense to that I have run e85 at 30psi or more for over 20k miles and still running stock block and studs.
When you see what cells your car hits through a run you can adjust incrementally and try to remember that if jumps in timing along the way are too great that will cause knock in and of itself.
Boost profile is super important in determining timing so once again you need to consider that as well. If you change boost timing map needs to be completely redone Period.
No one should attempt self tuning IMO wihtout a wideband to monitor o2 as too rich or too lean and Boom
PS When in doubt see a tooner at least for a baseline and fine tune from there
Good Luck and hope no one blows up due to bad tune

It has been a while so figured I'd try to contribute and stay politically correct (hopefully)

[amaev05]

Im not even going to get into this conversation again, about just copying maps and such forth. what you said should already be known before even attempting tuning. or posting here.

[amaev05]

I just don't understand y everyone acts like tuning is some kind of mysterious black art and you have to be some "pro tuner" super hero, to do it. or they are all shy about it like they are showing there dick or something. yes you need the proper tools and a shit load of time, but it can be done, if approached like a BOMB! lol

[oldevodude]

The contribution is in trying to say be careful to others and I did say there are plenty of maps on Evom if that is what you are after. I also said post logs so they can be reviewed...Â* You'd be surprised how naive people are.Â*
Is it safe to assume you don't hit 350 load?Â* I'm guessing aroundÂ* 280-300 give or take right?Â* You could change your scaling from 350 to 330 or 320 to gain resolution and have the ability to fine tune your map to more of the load cells you actually hit. (you might not need or want that though as there are a lot of similar blocks (AKA Block tuning)
Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*It is pointless in my opinion for everyone to post maps for the sake of posting them it doesn't remove any of the taboo or black art around tuning it could make it worse especially without logs.
When you updated your timing map you could show your fueling changes associated with the two different timing maps and this would help other self tuners see how timing affects fuel. (trying to contribute and be constructive) this is since YOU chose to share.
Go read the post again there is subtle information in there but it sounds like you already knew it. If someone replies and the information doesn't apply to you maybe you can just accept that the info. might help others.
These threads fall on their face for a few reasons.

The tuners and shop help pay for the site last time I checked and that is part of it.


Good Luck with your tuning

seriously

[amaev05]

Ok

[amaev05]

so i want every one to look 3-5 pages back in the advanced tech and tuning and tech talk power mods. and tell me what you see?? i see allot of talk about actual tuning, but for some reasion it's beacom extinct, and replaced with post whoring threads, no offense to such peeps,... but i just want to bring some of that back..

[amaev05]

com on! oldevodude your guilty too, these types of threads are what made this place great!

[jdm.evo9]

have you ordered that 2.0 cable yet?

[amaev05]

I'm not sur y you ask that? You don't use the 2.0 cable for the evo 8/9. Or not last time I checked

[jdm.evo9]

I saw a post you put saying that you were going to order one for your self. To tune the X I was asking because I have a 2.0 and I want a 1.3 cable. And I was going to ask if you wanna trade

[jdm.evo9]

well get to it! haha,
lmk if you need any help. i got my cable and was tuning only 3 months after buying my evo in 06 but have only tuned my car, so im interested to see how other cars act. i would relly love to see some evo x maps, since i am ordering my 2.0 cable soon for my 2010 se
i will also start an e85 thread soon since im not running my 8 on 91 anymore,



Seeeeee :)

[amaev05]

Ah now I got ya.. Lol! Let me check with my buddy who is getting rid of his to se what I can do.

[oldevodude]

com on! oldevodude your guilty too, these types of threads are what made this place great!


I don't get it I'm guilty of what ? We still need logs ideally map traces if you want input on your maps. I shared logs and pics. of some of my build and kinda burnt out as I finished my car. I'm kinda thinking about a 2.4 that will pus ha bigger turbo and keep spool down low where I like it but thats it.
My next project is to try 50/50 I'll start a new thread just for joo :)

[amaev05]

i did put up logs but they were deleted during the roll back

[oldevodude]

Do it again?

[amaev05]

Ok. I will put up what I had before, but I'm filling up with e85 tomorrow.

[amaev05]

what map tracer do you use? I haven't been able to get the evoscan tracer to work.

[amaev05]

here are some of the last logs i made. one is, cruzing around a complex. a 1,2,3 gear pull. and a 3rd gear pull.

[oldevodude]

You could run your fueling closer to 12.0 AFR A lot of tuners target this and I'm pretty sure you can run more timing up top. You slowly add timing until your car stops making more power. According to Gurus on EvoM E85 is very knock proof and you can actually run too much timing ofr go past MBTÂ*

http://forums.evolutionm.net/engine-management-tuning/500173-what-mbt.html

Here is EVoM thread on timing maps for E85 some of them are super scary so....

http://forums.evolutionm.net/alternative-fuel/406795-e85-timing-maps.html

What RPM do you hit max torque?Â*
Maybe You should log WGDC as 20 psi at 5k ? Peak boost at 5400?
I realize you are hitting around 26psi in the other logs is this your target?

Your fuel trims are off how long after changing fuel type did you do the logs?
Most tuners tune for +or minus 5% acceptable trims and others try to keep it well under three.

TPS RPM TimingAdv Boost AFR Trim_Low FuelTrim_Mid
100 2968.75 23 0.9354 11.7012 -11.273 -7.1549
100 3187.5 21 1.6461 12.0834 -11.273 -7.1549
100 3250 20 2.1199 12.0834 -11.273 -7.1549
100 3468.75 19 2.5937 11.76 -11.273 -7.1549
100 3656.25 15 3.7782 11.76 -11.273 -7.1549
100 3812.5 13 4.9627 11.2161 -11.273 -7.1549
100 4062.5 11 7.0948 11.2749 -11.273 -7.1549
100 4281.25 9 9.2269 11.2749 -11.273 -7.1549
100 4531.25 8 12.3066 11.2161 -11.273 -7.1549
100 4812.5 6 16.097 11.466 -11.273 -7.1549
100 5125 5 19.6505 11.466 -11.273 -7.1549
100 5468.75 5 22.0195 11.5248 -11.273 -7.1549
100 5875 5 23.6778 11.1867 -11.273 -7.1549
100 6218.75 6 23.6778 11.1867 -11.273 -7.1549
100 6625 8 22.9671 11.1867 -11.273 -7.1549
100 6937.5 9 22.0195 11.1867 -11.273 -7.1549

PS Not trying to Dig just offer constructive criticism

[amaev05]

here is in VDÂ* chart

[oldevodude]

My bad if these are 91 logs then afr is good as 11.0 ish is good target and maybe a little lean 4-5 k but I'm conservative or try to be safe and tune for 11-11.2 on 91
Evoscan and the map tracer is a pain and def. doesn't like the newer bigger maps at least based on my experience or lack thereof. I usually match cells one or two at a time and arranging the items in Evoscan will lump them together in the spreadsheet to make it easier to view as by default boos is way down there just change the order kinda like i did prior to posting.
If you have Tomei turbo it is spooling way late. Are you sure you don't have a wastegate or boost control issue? Maybe post WGDC map? How many turns on actuator during install i.e. how much spring preload? I fought boost control issue for a while and now I'm running the 22-24psi one I think from FP and that did the trick as Stocker and Forge one could not stay closed and leaked boost

[amaev05]

About the fuel trims, I seemed to have them close before, but yea they seem way off, I could use help in this department. And your right it is running lean during spool up. And it wasent doing this before. But the car spends such tittle time on 91 octane, I haven't got around to dialing it in since I made some big changes to the set up.

[amaev05]

The WG actuator is a brand new billit alluminum unit, I got from tomei, just installed it. I will try playing with the tension. I set it so you have to pull the rod out about 1/8th" to get it on the pivot flaper arm.

[oldevodude]

Half a pin turn the adjuster so the edge of the actuator arm covers half the post or pin this is more than 1/8" you mention. You will lose some travel but you will have better odds at keeping flapper closed. I used fancier mighty Vac to test wastegates and I was amazed that the Forge unit for example started cracking open at as little as 10psi. When I ran it it would simply blow open LOL sounded like car was blowing up first time. As far as your trims send me PM with injector type and your maps and I'll see what I can do O0

[oldevodude]

I should of said half a hole or some say 2.5 turns but at minimum try that as from the logs it looks like gate might be blowing open and then shutting which is why you have higher boost up top. I'm just sayin what it could be from the logs. Obviously I'm not a pro and I def. haven't seen your car but can say I have seen it on my car and other cars even pro tuned ones O0 and no I'm not bashing any of the pros out there I'm just trying to help.

[amaev05]

thank you for your help, i am back on e85 and want some help fine tuning that. and dont want to pollute this thread with e85 talk.

[oldevodude]

You are welcome
but yeah boost issue would be my first priority as you are losing a lot down low and logs would be needed at some point for the e85. I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you fix boost and remember it still could be 3 port or map or boost leak etc...

Do change the order of logged items so the boost and whatever currently next to it is closer to rpm timing etc... you highlight it then "move up" LOL I'm lazy and hate scrolling back and forth in spreadsheet

[amaev05]

post here with proper logs and maps for any help with amateur tuning..