Huzzah!

[Terry S]

Some fun reading on ID by the way: http://people.howstuffworks.com/intelligent-design.htm

Terry S

[rammsteinmatt]

ah yes the nazis could not have done it better.

sure they could. they just killed non believers.

paraphrase: the only way to remove an idea is a complete extermination of all persons that hold and subscribe to that idea. -adolf hitler.

he knew how to get a crowd to follow, make examples. omnipotence, gotta get me some of that.

[arrowevo]

Terry, thanks for your well thought response. *It deserves one as well so I will go into some 'pick-apart' myself, later.

RSMatt, *thanks too for your input, especially considering your lack of sleep. *I know how hard it can be to express myself after burning the candle from both ends, but I can not follow your line of thinking. *I see you picked images of some catholics, and I am not a catholic. *That being said, there are plenty of born agains (some may actually be too) that do horrible things to manipulate people, usually for their money, but not always . *I dont support those who do. *I know that I have done, and will continue to do things that, by moral standards are wrong. *This is what I would refer to as sin. *I believe that God will not co-exist with sin, therefore we need a way to be with God. *I believe that God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus here to save us from being separated from God. *I believe God would want us all to be saved. *


CHOICE:
I believe that God knows who will ultimately choose to believe in His Son. *I believe we choose what to believe (faith), and what not to believe. *I believe that as worshipers of God, we are given gifts to help maintain our path, but that does not in anyway mean we can not CHOOSE to change our paths. *As far as predetermination or preordained destiny, whatever...I knew, with every ounce of me, that someone was going to bring up the concept of predestination. *Does this mean that the person who brought it up had no choice in doing so? *No. *It means that I am aware enough to know that it will happen. *Of course, I am no where near as aware of things as God, therefore, his "accuracy" would obviously be much better than mine in knowing exactly who would do what. *That does not take our choice away.

The beauty of having a relationship with God is within the choice of it. *The choice exists between good and evil, right and wrong (whatever you want to call it) for the purpose of determining which path we will take. *I find this hard to explain to non-believers, but the reason why prostitution, overeating, gambling, opportunities to manipulate people all have their "rewards" is so we would have the choice. *Meaning, if raunchy sex with a hot pro didnt "feel good" than it wouldnt be much of a choice to not do it. *It goes back to original sin and the choices that were made. *The "forbidden fruit" of today has to be appealing, and we have to know inside that it is wrong or it wouldnt be a choice. *

The reasons for making choices is as much of a factor as the choice itself. *If I fear to not hook up with a pro only because of infectious diseases than my choice is not a rightious one, but a self-rightious one indeed. *

All of this being said, I would never try to claim to making the "right" choice ever time. *For myself and others who have the faith in God that I do, my "wrong" choices actually have much more sever consiquences. *I am human, and I still make mistakes, I just know who to apologize to first.

Laws:
This country was founded on Christian principals. *The norm was to have a relatively high moral standard (yes, yes plenty of evil practices. ie; slavery, witch hunts, etc) but the basis was of trust and brotherhood. *Society has changed and has begun to accept some very low standards on tv, in schools, etc. *I acknowledge that the right does act as a morality police that often over steps and mis-represents the beliefs of people like myself. *The basis for any support I give to these people is in the core essence to protect. *The item I mentioned early regarding a minor getting an abortion during schools hours is just one of the initiatives that has been supported by the right that I fully agree with. *I would request that anyone who has a daughter, or has a friend who has one; ask them if they want their daughter to be able to be legally excused from school to get an abortion, yet have it a law that says the school can not inform them. *I dont have a daughter, but I hope to have a child some day and the laws that are already on the books that most Christian lobbiest work towards removing are nasty, and I dont believe the founders of this country (not that they are relevant) would have planned on this. *

Again, Terry, I will get back to you on your input. *this was off the cuff.

[genrec]

This country was founded on christian principals????

yes, the slaughtering of millions of innocent indians who were here centuries before the white man.....that is definately a christian principal???

this country was founded by mistake and then for greed, there was nothing christian about taking this land.

[arrowevo]

Another small thing, those that relate nazi's and christians really couldnt be more off base. *yes, the roman catholics have a pope who was a nazi youth, but that is that organization, not anything I follow. *I also agree that there are plenty of racist who proclaim to be Christians, but I would doubt their resting place... but for those who like to capture stuff from the web:

About nuremburg trials...
Justice Jackson noted that ‘The Nazi Party always was predominantly anti-Christian in its ideology’, and ‘carried out a systematic and relentless repression of all Christian sects and churches.’2 He cited a decree of leading Nazi, Martin Bormann: ‘More and more the people must be separated from the churches and their organs, the pastors.’2 Jackson cited another defendant, the viciously anti-Jewish propagandist and pornographer Julius Streicher, who ‘complained that Christian teachings have stood in the way of “racial solution of the Jewish question in Europe.”’2

[Update 14 March 2002: another senior member of the US prosecution team at Nuremberg, General William Donovan, compiled a huge amount of documentation that the Nazis planned to destroy German Christianity systematically—see The Case Against the Nazis, The New York Times, 13 January 2002. Donovan’s documents were stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959, and are now being posted online at Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion. The first installment is the huge (108 pages) PDF file, The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches.]

Instead, as documented in the current CEN Technical Journal,3 Nazis eagerly made use of the evolutionary concepts already entrenched in German academia. Note that the subtitle of Darwin’s The Origin of Species by means of natural selection was: The preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life. Evolutionary teachings were simply carried to their logical conclusion by the Nazis who tried to exterminate the ‘inferior’ races like the Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs, as well as the ‘unfit’ (e.g. the handicapped). This is confirmed by the evolutionist Sir Arthur Keith, who wrote:

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’4

It was not just Nazi Germany, but the Allied nations as well. In fact, even before WWII, evolution had inspired forced sterilization programs in Lynchburg, Virginia, USA,5 *and Vermont (Eugenics in Vermont).

However, the Western nations have not learned the lessons of the horrific wars and genocides this century. Evolution is today entrenched in our universities even more than it was in Nazi Germany.

pk

[rsmatt]

that is the great thing about this country, i do not contend your right to belive in your religion. as a mater of fact i aplaud you for being disaplined in a belief (not to many people hold them selvs to anything any more). now on the other hand all i was trying to piont out is how most christians are veary judgemental and dont extend the same courtacy. as you said in your post, you think abortion is moraly wrong so you want to see laws changed to prohibit abortion. well i think a "woman" not a minor should have a right to chose. basicly if you are christian dont have one. now as far as the minor being able to get an abortion with out parental consent, i cant say i agree with that. a minor can not even have thier ear pierced with out consent so how can they have a medical prosedure such as an abortion? i will give you that one O0 but at the same time with the prolife/prochiose camps its give an inch take a mile. most people saw this minor law as a precursor to another go at roe vrs wade and voted it down.

basicly here is what i am looking for, i dont force my belief's on you and you dont force your belief's on me. as such i dont try to out law you right to practice any religon of your choise, and in turn you dont tkae away the right for a woman to chose,or try to make prayer standard in schools, ext ext. peacfull coexistance and true tolerance, that is the only way. at the end of the day we are all americans.

[Terry S]

Instead, as documented in the current CEN Technical Journal,3 Nazis eagerly made use of the evolutionary concepts already entrenched in German academia. Note that the subtitle of Darwin’s The Origin of Species by means of natural selection was: The preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life. Evolutionary teachings were simply carried to their logical conclusion by the Nazis who tried to exterminate the ‘inferior’ races like the Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs, as well as the ‘unfit’ (e.g. the handicapped). This is confirmed by the evolutionist Sir Arthur Keith, who wrote:

That sounds a whole lot like a replay of the crusades and the inquisition to me... Those are some of christianities "crowning glories".

Also, the Nazi regime killed thousands of Atheists for not believing in god at many of the death camps, including Auschwitz. The Nazi's were social evolutionists, not theological evolutionists. Again, a different brand of evolution.

Terry S

[rsmatt]

also just for note, i was not saying the catholics and nazis where in bed with eachother (even though they wher for a time). i was showing how alot of the mind controll the nazis used was close to what the bible uses, you know eaternal damnation and all that nasty stuff.

[Bills Evo]

This is great! I'm looking forward to jumping into this with both feet and more. I was a minister for several years and now I teach biology in High School, I have a B.S. and M.S. so I feel somewhat qualified to make a few comments. Oh yes, I usually spell correctly and use proper grammar for the most part, (I don't walk on water so I will most likely make some mistakes, not misteaks.) . First I shall take a nap. If anyone wishes to take some shots at me for my other posts, go for it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bill

[rsmatt]

This is great! I'm looking forward to jumping into this with both feet and more. I was a minister for several years and now I teach biology in High School, I have a B.S. and M.S. so I feel somewhat qualified to make a few comments. Oh yes, I usually spell correctly and use proper grammar for the most part, (I don't walk on water so I will most likely make some mistakes, not misteaks.) . First I shall take a nap. If anyone wishes to take some shots at me for my other posts, go for it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bill

there is so much i could say.................. but i wont

[arrowevo]

also just for note, i was not saying the catholics and nazis where in bed with eachother (even though they wher for a time). i was showing how alot of the mind controll the nazis used was close to what the bible uses, you know eaternal damnation and all that nasty stuff.

but unfortunately "common man" was not allowed to read the bible for the majority of the time that it has been in existence, so mind control through the bible doest work for me, now on the other hand, mind control by controlling the consumption of the bible does work. If one reads the bible with a desire to understand it the truth can not be hidden, but if someone reads the bible with the purpose of proving their opinion it can usually be done as well.

Re: Womans rights to control their reproductive processes, I wont discuss this in great depth in a serial manner (ie; boards, IM, email, etc). roe v wade was decided on when i was two years old. If the vote for a type of initiative ever comes up, I will vote as my conscious leads. I have never, and will never speak to anyone who has done this (had an abortion) in a condemning manner, as I assume they are in enough pain to begin with. I do believe that option are there (adoption, etc) but that is between the mother, father, child (fetus) and God. I personally dont think that God looks at abortion much different than lying or any other sin but saying even that is typically too much for people to handle.

I love the fact that this topic is getting as much attention as it is. I can not think of a more important topic, well maybe a few more people doing some write-ups on their experience with n2o on their evos. just kidding. considering the time of year i think it is important to think about our existence a little more. cause y'all know Who the reason for the season is.

pk

[gofaster87]

Get this religious garbage out of here. This is a political forum not the forum to preach about gods existance to us. Im sorry but this crap. I come here to read about political opinions not religious beliefs.

[Terry S]

Well, we are all straying from the topic a lot actually. The post was originally about ID being allowed in a science class, and now we are making direct attacks/defences of christianity.

Personally, I can't stand god debates, just a total waste of time. You cant prove any format of god exists to me using bibles, so don't waste my time trying.

Terry S

[rsmatt]

arrowevo ygpm.

[arrowevo]

Well, we are all straying from the topic a lot actually. The post was originally about ID being allowed in a science class, and now we are making direct attacks/defences of christianity.

Personally, I can't stand god debates, just a total waste of time. You cant prove any format of god exists to me using bibles, so don't waste my time trying.

Terry S

would you accept the use of theological writtings based off of the followers of the bible and its teachings? let me know, please.

pk

[Terry S]

Well, we are all straying from the topic a lot actually. The post was originally about ID being allowed in a science class, and now we are making direct attacks/defences of christianity.

Personally, I can't stand god debates, just a total waste of time. You cant prove any format of god exists to me using bibles, so don't waste my time trying.

Terry S

would you accept the use of theological writtings based off of the followers of the bible and its teachings?* let me know, please.

pk

Taking to PM's...

Terry S

[gofaster87]

Why is it that everyone else can take religious crap to pm but you cannot? Are you special. Go start a thread labeled "religious" so others can stay out if they choose to.

Well, we are all straying from the topic a lot actually. The post was originally about ID being allowed in a science class, and now we are making direct attacks/defences of christianity.

Personally, I can't stand god debates, just a total waste of time. You cant prove any format of god exists to me using bibles, so don't waste my time trying.

Terry S

would you accept the use of theological writtings based off of the followers of the bible and its teachings?* let me know, please.

pk

[genrec]

Well, we are all straying from the topic a lot actually. The post was originally about ID being allowed in a science class, and now we are making direct attacks/defences of christianity.

Personally, I can't stand god debates, just a total waste of time. You cant prove any format of god exists to me using bibles, so don't waste my time trying.

Terry S

would you accept the use of theological writtings based off of the followers of the bible and its teachings?* let me know, please.

pk

This is exactly what these people do......there is no end...if it cannot be duscussed here, now it goes to a PM....then it goes to religious literature......whatever it takes i guess.....there is no end in the born agains eyes in trying to persaude people they are right and how wrong you are with their scare tactics of a non-exsistant hell.....it is absolutely rediculous, i cannot understands ones devotion to the biggest waste of time and lie ever invented by man himself. sad.

[arrowevo]

fyi, already taken it to pms. did so as soon as the first request came in. i see you are in heavy favor of censorship (that is a politically based statement, right?)

the original topic was a political topic based on religious perspectives, hence well, my perspective.

as far as this is what those people do, i am not one of "those" people no matter whom you are speaking of.

and i remember someone saying something about anything goes here...if you are easily offended leave, etc. i, my good man, am not easily offended, but perhaps others here are.

[gofaster87]

Edited my comments to be civil.