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Thread: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

  1. #61

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by GokuSSJ4
    There is one God, who is infinetely perfect, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit; we believe that the Bible is inspired Word of God, the supreme source of faith and practice; in the ethernal Deity of Jesus Christ; in His virgin birth; in His death on the Calvary as a substitute for our sins; in His bodily ressurrection; that salvation comes by faith in Christ; that all mem are lost apart from the saving grace found in Christ; that the Church is composed of Born-again believers; in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit in people's lives; that Christians are responsible to go into all nations, in the personal return of Jesus Christ to the earth.
    Interesting point...but then again here is the other side of that argument...

    But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God. (Adam and Eve)

    What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
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  2. #62

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    I found this....

    **Not saying what I believe or dont believe or what you believe or anyone believes is right or wrong... believe what you want its fine by me... just dont force your beliefs on me! O0**

    Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


    10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

    9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

    8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

    7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

    6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

    5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

    4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

    3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

    2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

    1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
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  3. #63
    Evo Specialist *chris*'s Avatar
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    i love that list ^^^^

    ok i just read the passages of job ...it was satan who took everything from him. BUT ...who gave him the power to do that?! god. why? to prove a point to satan? what a great guy! lets turn his happy life into a living hell just to see if he'd blame me. and then in the previous passages, it says... job FEARS god and shuns evil. WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    again, this is just bizarro world.

  4. #64

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by GokuSSJ4
    have you guys search for the famous Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758).
    Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
    Im sorry for those that dont agree with this but for those that havent had the chance to read it, here it is!
    http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html
    here is another link on some of his work
    http://edwards.yale.edu/major-works/...-an-angry-god/
    I've heard about this, but I have never heard it myself. Thank you for sharing this.
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  5. #65

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Evo8
    I found this....

    **Not saying what I believe or dont believe or what you believe or anyone believes is right or wrong... believe what you want its fine by me... just dont force your beliefs on me! O0**

    Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


    10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

    9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

    8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

    7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

    6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

    5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

    4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

    3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

    2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

    1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
    Maybe this is how it looks like to others. Whatever I look like, I believe my Savior is Jesus Christ who died on the cross for my sins. I will respect the descisions others make for their religions, but I will like to share God's message and how he has changed my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by *chris*
    i love that list ^^^^

    ok i just read the passages of job ...it was satan who took everything from him. BUT ...who gave him the power to do that?! god. why? to prove a point to satan? what a great guy! lets turn his happy life into a living hell just to see if he'd blame me. and then in the previous passages, it says... job FEARS god and shuns evil. WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    again, this is just bizarro world.
    You are not supposed to understand the divine. There are things that are too complex as to God's choices.
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  6. #66

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Hehe. I'm going to church in an hour.
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  7. #67

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Ugh. This is almost as bad as watching Scientology. I agree that there is more to the next life (or frame, or existance, or world, or what have you) but I doubt that its anything we have read or known will tell us.

    The bible is still a myth. A collection of stories that were written down after being passed orally from generations down. I doubt that what is in there is really accurate or worth throwing my reason or thought into. The throw it to "God" and its his will feels like a serious cop-out on what is really a deep and thoughtful topic.

    If there is one constant faith that I have, it is that any subject, word, thought, or "faith" that can be presented from one man to another, can and will be used in such a way to make one more powerful than the other. Basically religion is a tool for power. True faith, spirituality does not come from the bible, or from men telling others how to think, feel, or live. It comes from doing. It comes from having a sense of right and wrong and then acting on those beliefs. I feel like the bible is sort of a training wheels of morality. At some point the wheels have to come off and a human has to think for himself and do what they feel is right.

    So many of our issues come from religion. The real politics come from the big ones; water, land, food, etc etc... but whenever someone needs a justification to harm one man over another...inevitably the "religious" card is played. "They interpret the bible differently than us....kill them!"

    Anytime I have seen backward thought, ideas, or just plain things that or obstinate, irritating, and really stupid....It usually comes from the christian right. The stupidest laws, the most irritating of things said and done.... All in heavy Christian areas. I grew up in an area of Texas that was pretty nice and at the time not heavily populated. As it got more populated and more churches came in...ugh. The stupider the laws got. The blue laws there are enough to drive any sane person that has lived in California mad. The backwards ideas that belong more from a time better forgotten...They will be spouted and espoused there. People there trade quotes from the bible instead of forming their own opinions and do some critical thinking.

    I read the Bible before anyone gets angry and asks," Have you even READ the Bible?! Dont you know what an earth changing experience that is?!". Yes I read it. It read like OK science fiction. While interesting, and mildly entertaining it did create some thinking that I liked but overall I did not believe. I was not converted to throwing my thought process and critical thinking and live my whole world and faith to this book.

    The translation of the Bible itself into Englishis a fascinating look at Christianity. The person responsible for over 80% of the the Great Bible we have now, Tyndale was murdered because he had translated the bible from Latin into English. Nice people. I wonder if people will say he was murdered because he sinned before God. It was a popular view at the time... If so, then reading a non-latin Bible would be a propogation of that sin. Of course it just might be another man using religion as a tool for justification of an evil act...nah. That never happens.

    In all this I respect people's beliefs. I firmly believe that people need to have a thought, and idea of what we truly are and our place that should and will be. These thoughts though should be always open to be rethought out, and challenged internally by what we see, hear, think, and learn as we get older. I do think how we treat one another can and will be a reflection on what happens next. I dont think religion, at least in its current form, is good for humanity's growth. It is inflexible, outdated, and used as a basis for power over the weak willed, or the small minded. Its not true spirituality. I think the human race will grow far better without those chains upon us, without the conflict of difference of one interpretation that was made by men, over another interpretation that was made by men.

    If taken by the long view of millenia, this time period will stull be reflected upon as a time of children arguing over nonsense and stupidity when we could do great things together. No I dont like religion at all. If I could I would stamp it out today for the betterment of us all. The words of martyrs, jihad, holy crusade, christianization, bringing God to the masses.... are all bad words to me. Most of the problems with the middle east are because religions cant share "the holy city" of Jerusalem. From the middle ages on, that has been one of the great issues of the time. Recapture "the Holy City". Why?! If we measured the cost of these wars, these battles, the issues we have in present time... Israel vs the rest of the Middle East, can we say its worth it? I vote completely, whole heartedly, unequivocably, undeniably, No.

    I dont think God would like what his Children are doing if we really looked at it from His perspective. I doubt very much the things done in his name are really what He had in mind.
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  8. #68
    Evo Specialist *chris*'s Avatar
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by Granny Shifter
    Quote Originally Posted by *chris*
    i love that list ^^^^

    ok i just read the passages of job ...it was satan who took everything from him. BUT ...who gave him the power to do that?! god. why? to prove a point to satan? what a great guy! lets turn his happy life into a living hell just to see if he'd blame me. and then in the previous passages, it says... job FEARS god and shuns evil. WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    again, this is just bizarro world.
    You are not supposed to understand the divine. There are things that are too complex as to God's choices.
    ok im sorry ...but that is such a cop-out. like i said awhile ago, im not trying to attack you or your faith.

    but thats a PRIME example of why i dont believe the bible. it makes absolutely no sense to fear a loving being. if the being is truly loving, then why is he instilling fear in his followers. its exactly what totalitarian is ...instill compliance with fear. do what i say, or go to hell.

    i do agree alot with what xcorwyn said. so O0 for you.

    if you cant tell, its been a damn long time since ive been in a good religions debate. there are only 2friends of mine that i could debate this stuff with, and one of them sees things nearly identical to what i think. while the other is INSANELY religious now ...so to question the bible in front of him is like starting a war.

    so by all means, believe what you want to. i just have serious issues with many religions ESPECIALLY christianity. i cant even stand to sit in a church during a funeral ...i just hate being in this 'house of man ..er god.'

  9. #69

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    I was looking forward to reading about the 10 satan killed. Wouldn't it make sense to also provide that data? It seems that a lot of effort was put into listing the millions killed but he couldn't come up with 10. Anyways, are the millions killed considered a fact? If they were wouldn't that be an acknowledgement of belief?

    In my opinion, I think people try to justify their actions by rejecting their accountability to a higher authority. So in essence by rejecting God they are shedding that accountabilty. To be a Believer means that you must deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Him, not too many people are willing to do that. I'm Christian and I stand firm in my beliefs. I'm also aware that I may be wrong. Every one has faith in something, whether it be science or whatever they choose. I just choose to put my faith in God.

    Some of you have questioned "why does God allow.." We are paying for our disobedience (sins). I have been through my fair share of personal battles also but If you recall the Apostle Paul says (Phil. 1:21) For to me to live [is] Christ. (Should he be suffered to live, his life would be for extending the kingdom of Christ, but personally,
    to die [is] gain. (To die would be gain; a release from sufferings and an entrance upon eternal joys.)

    I have read Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christan Nation" and I see some valid points. I can understand why he questions my faith.Â* If God was proved to exist by science or He came down and peformed a miracle for all man to see, then what would be the point of having free will? Wouldn't we all choose to follow if we knew that we'd be cast into the lake of fire without Him?

    I know that some of you have read the bible and there is passage (the location escapes my mind at the moment) that states "some will become cold hearted or hardened of the heart" towards God. No matter what explaination is given or offered it will never suffice.

    In conclusion, I live my life like there is a God. Of course, I'm human and will make many mistakes along the way. But in the end, when I die if there is no God, what have I really lost? Nothing, I lived a good life and turned back into dirt.

    But what if there is a God? Then what?..

    "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few shall find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).Â*

    Just my 2 cents.Â* O0
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  10. #70
    Evo Specialist *chris*'s Avatar
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    my question still stands to anyone who can give me a reasonable answer...
    WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    also, someone mentioned noah & the ark, and it made me think of something. going back to what angela was saying... god created a perfect being but then these perfect beings fell to temptation. then he had noah make the ark, take a bunch of animals with him and get on the ark so he could wipe out all of his creation, to restart earth.

    why wouldnt he just wipe it ALL out? obviously noah is not perfect. so basically he's allowing imperfection to remain. what the hell?

  11. #71
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Jesus titty fucking christ people. You guys write to much.

    I'm working today but i'll respond back to as many of you as I can when I get a free hour.

    Terry S
    [quote author=Ricardon link=topic=15177.msg6617356#msg6617356 date=1132790185]<br />Just about the most relevant post I have ever seen on this board...EVER!Â* Terry S not only wins the thread, he wins the board...I humbly bow out.<br />[/quote]<br />[quote author=ultraflip link=topic=7103.msg6679340#msg6679340 date=1142880156]<br />HAHAHHAA... TERRY PWNZ ALLLL!!! i bow[/quote]

  12. #72

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    I crack up when I see people thank god cause they have food to eat. Who should the 5 million childrens under the age of 5 that die from starvation each year thank?? Should they thank god for starving them to death? I DONT THINK SO!

    Religion = Excuse

    Religion FTL

  13. #73

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count


    Quote Originally Posted by *chris*
    my question still stands to anyone who can give me a reasonable answer...
    WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    also, someone mentioned noah & the ark, and it made me think of something. going back to what angela was saying... god created a perfect being but then these perfect beings fell to temptation. then he had noah make the ark, take a bunch of animals with him and get on the ark so he could wipe out all of his creation, to restart earth.

    why wouldnt he just wipe it ALL out? obviously noah is not perfect. so basically he's allowing imperfection to remain. what the hell?
    I don't think its necessarily a fear of God but rather a fear of His wrath. The questions you ask are too complex for me (and quite possibly everyone else here) to answer. It's like asking you to explain all of the working parts and how they interact on a NASA space-shuttle. I'm pretty sure a NASA engineer could tell me but because I don't know much about it, it would seem like nonsense.

    You don't understand because the Holy Spirit is the spirit of wisdom and revelation. Ephesians 1:17 states "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ..may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"

    As a non believer you dont possess the HS and that is causing your doubts.

    Maybe you can ask God yourself on judgement day =-)

    Stop hiding behind the AWD.

  14. #74

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    You also mentioned Job.

    True, Job's faith was tested and his personal life was turned upside down but you failed to mention that his prosperity after the fact was twice fold.

    I like these discussions but both sides have to be presented.
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  15. #75
    Evolved DizEvoIX's Avatar
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by chavo_del_8
    Quote Originally Posted by *chris*
    my question still stands to anyone who can give me a reasonable answer...
    WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?


    why wouldn't he just wipe it ALL out? obviously Noah is not perfect. so basically he's allowing imperfection to remain. what the hell?
    Quote Originally Posted by *chris*
    my question still stands to anyone who can give me a reasonable answer...
    WHY would you have to FEAR a loving god?

    also, someone mentioned Noah & the ark, and it made me think of something. going back to what Angela was saying... god created a perfect being but then these perfect beings fell to temptation. then he had Noah make the ark, take a bunch of animals with him and get on the ark so he could wipe out all of his creation, to restart earth.

    why wouldn't he just wipe it ALL out? obviously Noah is not perfect. so basically he's allowing imperfection to remain. what the hell?
    I don't think its necessarily a fear of God but rather a fear of His wrath. The questions you ask are too complex for me (and quite possibly everyone else here) to answer. It's like asking you to explain all of the working parts and how they interact on a NASA space-shuttle. I'm pretty sure a NASA engineer could tell me but because I don't know much about it, it would seem like nonsense.

    You don't understand because the Holy Spirit is the spirit of wisdom and revelation. Ephesians 1:17 states "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ..may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"

    As a non believer you dint possess the HS and that is causing your doubts.

    Maybe you can ask God yourself on judgement day =-)

    Good answer Chavo... I don't have all of the answers neither. But, I extend an invitation to any and all who want to go to church with me. My Pastor is very knowledgeable, and can answer a lot of your questions. My church is in Compton. PM me if any of you want to go. We also have Bible Study on Wednesday nights. That is the best forum to ask these questions and express your feelings of doubt and no faith. I'm not saying you will be converted or will change your mind, but you will have a better understanding. Our service starts at 7:45am and another service at 11:00am.
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  16. #76

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by mattsevo
    I crack up when I see people thank god cause they have food to eat. Who should the 5 million childrens under the age of 5 that die from starvation each year thank?? Should they thank god for starving them to death? I DONT THINK SO!

    Religion = Excuse

    Religion FTL
    and just because you don't believe makes it ok to insult and laugh?

    I sincerely doubt that you would laugh in a mosque full of praying Islamic men.

    Ignorance FTL
    Stop hiding behind the AWD.

  17. #77

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by chavo_del_8
    In my opinion, I think people try to justify their actions by rejecting their accountability to a higher authority. So in essence by rejecting God they are shedding that accountabilty.
    What accountability for what are you talking about? I think people hide their accountability behind the standard,"Well I'm human and I sin, and God will forgive me so I can go do what I want." Like I said before its spirituality for infants. You should be accountable for your own actions without having a religion that is run by men, told by men, founded by men, and written originally by men tell you what to do. I guess like I said before... We have a lot of growing up to do still. As silly as Scientology is, its no more silly than how Christian fundamentalists act.

    Its also funny how any debate about facts, the whole thing about God knows, or I give myself to God, he has the answers etc etc is the pat answer. Those arent answers. They are cop outs.

    The world isnt thousands of years old. No real solid of proof exists beyond Men's actions in the bible. Even those dont always co-ordinate too well. Answers from the Christian Fundys always leave you scratching your head on how they can seriously answer like that and expect people to take them seriously. Well its God will doesnt answer a thing.

    Now personally I think the answer is somewhere in between Science and Faith. The answers are there for those that truly want to know and learn. I think God is truly testing Humanity. I think we are failing horribly. No one got the real message. Instead we have half-wits that take what they are spoon fed and call that faith and spirituality. I think that everyone needs to find the answers for themselves, take a hard look at every religion, some history courses that cover the events and times that are factual, read a bit in some off beat thinking books, and read some other books out there that have nothing to do with religion but offer insight to how Men really think and work, like The Art of War.

    Of course its always easier to read a few versus in the Bible and call it a day. I personally choose the hard path. Think. Learn. I hope someday to have a real command on the subject enough to where I can say whats really out there. I can say one thing is for sure. No one gets out alive. :)
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  18. #78

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    Quote Originally Posted by chavo_del_8
    Quote Originally Posted by mattsevo
    I crack up when I see people thank god cause they have food to eat. Who should the 5 million childrens under the age of 5 that die from starvation each year thank?? Should they thank god for starving them to death? I DONT THINK SO!

    Religion = Excuse

    Religion FTL
    and just because you don't believe makes it ok to insult and laugh?

    I sincerely doubt that you would laugh in a mosque full of praying Islamic men.

    Ignorance FTL
    Hell no! They might show us their belief in there supposed "non-violent" religion and kill me!!!

    Seriously though I respect other people's religious beliefs. When at a dinner, people wish to pray, I pray. I find akin to taking my shoes off at the door. Its kinda annoying, but hey its respectful.
    the characters and events depicted in this posting are fictional and any similarity to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental and unintentional<br /><br />Republicans for Cthulu - He can&#039;t be any worse than the last Republican in office

  19. #79

    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    The accountability I was referring to was the accountability towards God for our own actions. I never said accountability towards man. Every man is the same, no better than the next. I agree that a lot of people hide behind "God forgives.." and that in itself is not right.

    I do not consider myself religious because to me that means ritualistic. Going to church on sunday, singing some hymns, saying a prayer. Playing church.

    I consider myself a believer, spiritual, a man of God and what really gets to me is when people use God's name to do harm to others. So I decided to be different. One who embraces everyone, accepts everyone, who loves everyone because Jesus loved me and I'm supposed to reflect that.

    I also respect everyone, even those who mock my way of life, make fun of my beliefs, whatever the case. Jesus, who was the King of Jews was mocked, spat on, and beaten.

    I guess more people need to apply Jesus' teachings instead of just preaching them.
    Stop hiding behind the AWD.

  20. #80
    Evo Specialist *chris*'s Avatar
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    Re: Bible Info: God vs. Satan - Final Body Count

    yes i understand its more of a fear of his wrath ...but i still dont see why we have to fear that. if he's so loving, there should be no threat.

    and yes, i am aware that jobs fortunes returned. but why did he need to be tested to begin with? what was the meaning of it ...to prove a point to satan? yah ok. and what exactly did that accomplish?

    i went to church, i heard the words, i saw how 'happy' people seemed to be. i even tried to believe it for a long time. but what little belief i had in a blind faith, couldnt stand against lifes little moments. so i turned to other religions but again found them all eerily similar. looked to philosophy, but unlike religion, it never provides answers. only questions... and once one question is answered, a hundred more arise. so where do i stand today? i dont know, i assume theres something more, maybe another life like reincarnation. but whos to know for sure until youre dead.

    again, xcorwyn is nailing it. O0 O0

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